Does anyone have a list of parts and sources to rebuild the front and rear suspension on a 73 412 wagon? I'm planning to lower the front end with Audi 4000 strut, add caster, add front camber adjustment, and add rear sway bar. Thanks.
I'll add to this as this tread develops (updated 12/27/05):
Front End
* Idler Arm Bushing(for '72-1/2 and later Supers) -- $50 each, qty 1 (aircooled.net)
OR Idler arm bushing from BusDepot -- only $13 each, qty 1 (busdepot.com)
* Steering Damper Bushing -- $1 each, qty 1 (busdepot.com)
* Steering Damper, Type 4-- $30/each, qty 1 (aircooled.net)
* Tie Rod End, LH -- $11/each, qty 2 (busdepot.com)
* Tie Rod End, RH -- $9/each, qty 2 (busdepot.com)
* Front inner wheel bearing -- $6 each, qty 2 (busdepot.com)
* Front outer wheel bearing -- $6 each, qty 2 (busdepot.com)
* Radius arm bushings -- fabricated per thread
* Control arm bushings (order # 22-201), both ends shimmed with 1/16" thick bronze thrust washers or replace with custom solid delrin bushing -- $45/set, qty 1 (rpiequipped.com)
* Center link (TRW part # DS-858) -- NOS or rebuild...
* Rabbit strut tubes -- junk yard, modify per thread
* Audi 4000/Quantum strut cartridges-- $27 each, qty 2 (fruitridgeautomotive on ebay)
* Ball joints --- ???
Rear End
* Control arm bushings -- ???
* Rear bearings/seals -- $20 each, qty 2 (bughaus.com)
* Shocks -- KYB 5406 (Ford Econoline 3/4 ton) or KYB 5410 (Ford 1/2 ton) -- $40 each, qty 2 (FLAPS)
Suspension Rebuild Shopping List
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
Suspension Rebuild Shopping List
Last edited by Bill K. on Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Guest
Well, I'm working on that right now. This is a list of what I have gotten or ordered so far and where I have gotten it. Everything is roughly according to Ray's plan.
-Bronze later Super Beetle Idler arm bushing:
Mid America Motor Works (better yet aircooled.net probably)
OEM rubber type available at bughaus.com
-Control arm bushings, Rabbit/Jetta 1/Scirocco: Not sure about this- I got some poly front A arm bushings from Autotech (any WCVW tuner should have them) and haven't fitted them yet, from a glance, I'm not so sure they're going to work?
-Inner/Out LH/RH tie rod ends: Meyle- busdepot.com
-VW Fox strut mounts: ebay- from MOFOCO- half price (any decent VW or import place should be able to get them)
-Gabriel Gas Ryder Premium strut inserts for VW Quantum/Audi 4000- ebay-"fruitridgeautomotive" IIRC dirt cheap (better yet, KYB-GR2 inserts- KYB or import parts dealer)
-Watercooled VW strut bodies-rebuildable- (need to be trimmed and smoothed): Parts car/junk yard or machined "top stub"- Ray, do you have specs for this?
-NOS ball joints- ebay- Mother Lode Minnesota Type 4 parts stash/trades
NLA- sometimes show up on ebay- drill top center, tap weep hole for grease zerk, use thin gasket to seal to lower strut
What I still need:
-polyurethane and delrin sheet to fabricate radius arm bushings and centering ring -Poly sheets/tubes, etc... www.sunray-inc.com
-Center link: still available from TRW I believe, some NOS have showed up on ebay, sounds best to rebuild per Ray's specs. (I still don't have a good idea of how to do this).
-Eccentric bolts for camber adjustment (Super Beetle?)
-Machined slotted inserts for subframe front mounting points caster adjustment: Local machine shop, emachineshop.com maybe? (necessary design will be apparent once you disassemble suspension)
-Ford Econline van front shock absorbers for rear w/ modified lower mount -KYB dealer or F.L.A.P.S.? Bilstein available?
-Bronze later Super Beetle Idler arm bushing:
Mid America Motor Works (better yet aircooled.net probably)
OEM rubber type available at bughaus.com
-Control arm bushings, Rabbit/Jetta 1/Scirocco: Not sure about this- I got some poly front A arm bushings from Autotech (any WCVW tuner should have them) and haven't fitted them yet, from a glance, I'm not so sure they're going to work?
-Inner/Out LH/RH tie rod ends: Meyle- busdepot.com
-VW Fox strut mounts: ebay- from MOFOCO- half price (any decent VW or import place should be able to get them)
-Gabriel Gas Ryder Premium strut inserts for VW Quantum/Audi 4000- ebay-"fruitridgeautomotive" IIRC dirt cheap (better yet, KYB-GR2 inserts- KYB or import parts dealer)
-Watercooled VW strut bodies-rebuildable- (need to be trimmed and smoothed): Parts car/junk yard or machined "top stub"- Ray, do you have specs for this?
-NOS ball joints- ebay- Mother Lode Minnesota Type 4 parts stash/trades
NLA- sometimes show up on ebay- drill top center, tap weep hole for grease zerk, use thin gasket to seal to lower strut
What I still need:
-polyurethane and delrin sheet to fabricate radius arm bushings and centering ring -Poly sheets/tubes, etc... www.sunray-inc.com
-Center link: still available from TRW I believe, some NOS have showed up on ebay, sounds best to rebuild per Ray's specs. (I still don't have a good idea of how to do this).
-Eccentric bolts for camber adjustment (Super Beetle?)
-Machined slotted inserts for subframe front mounting points caster adjustment: Local machine shop, emachineshop.com maybe? (necessary design will be apparent once you disassemble suspension)
-Ford Econline van front shock absorbers for rear w/ modified lower mount -KYB dealer or F.L.A.P.S.? Bilstein available?
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
Thanks. See updates in first post.
I called aircooled.net and the idler arm bushing is BRONZE for $49 just as with at mid america. $13 at busdepot must be oem rubber ones.
Control arm bushing clarifications:
* Are the Rabbit/Golf/Jetta I (#22-201 from rpiequipped) correct for the front (with extra spacer)?
* What do we use for the rear control arms?
Rear shock choice:
Which Ford Econoline shock works best for a 412 wagon? KYB 5406 (3/4 ton) or the KYB 5410 (1/2 ton)?
I called aircooled.net and the idler arm bushing is BRONZE for $49 just as with at mid america. $13 at busdepot must be oem rubber ones.
Control arm bushing clarifications:
* Are the Rabbit/Golf/Jetta I (#22-201 from rpiequipped) correct for the front (with extra spacer)?
* What do we use for the rear control arms?
Rear shock choice:
Which Ford Econoline shock works best for a 412 wagon? KYB 5406 (3/4 ton) or the KYB 5410 (1/2 ton)?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Both of the rear shocks work about the same. The leverage due to teh length of teh rear trailing wishbones makes the difference almost nil. But...the 3/4 tons have a little better roll control in cornering. This is especially useful in wagons with no sway bar (you should get one from a 4 door as soon as possible....it bolts right up).
As for rear bushings, its odd. The bonded rubber is cast under such compression....that other than the outside edges getting dried out...they rarely go out.
A couple things the rear bushing do....is that they can settle to where one side of the rubber appears to be thicker than the other. This can affect alignment. Also, sometimes the outer steel tube they are cast in....slips along the inner steel bush along with teh rubber. Again...an alignment thing.
These are very tight bushings. There is nothing suitable out there. You will notice that the inner sleeve is very thick. These bushings are about 70% steel.
The best way to replace these...is to go to a machine shop and have then machined from glass filled delrin...or MDS filled nylon 12. Yes...its a little stiff...but you will not notice the vibration. This is what Audi makes its control arm bushings from for racing.
They are two part bushings with a flange at each end. Much better.
I had one set made about 10 years ago. The company that makes most of my bushings is a CNC milling company that specializes in one offs of plastic and rubber from 3mm to 300mm. I still have the drawing. If anyone is interested in a group buy....lets talk about it.
Also...on that note....at one time they made replacement clutch slave seals for me. Problem was....at that time...they were limited in materials....and the seals had an 8 month lifespan. Now they have a huge range....and I am talking to them again. Ray
As for rear bushings, its odd. The bonded rubber is cast under such compression....that other than the outside edges getting dried out...they rarely go out.
A couple things the rear bushing do....is that they can settle to where one side of the rubber appears to be thicker than the other. This can affect alignment. Also, sometimes the outer steel tube they are cast in....slips along the inner steel bush along with teh rubber. Again...an alignment thing.
These are very tight bushings. There is nothing suitable out there. You will notice that the inner sleeve is very thick. These bushings are about 70% steel.
The best way to replace these...is to go to a machine shop and have then machined from glass filled delrin...or MDS filled nylon 12. Yes...its a little stiff...but you will not notice the vibration. This is what Audi makes its control arm bushings from for racing.
They are two part bushings with a flange at each end. Much better.
I had one set made about 10 years ago. The company that makes most of my bushings is a CNC milling company that specializes in one offs of plastic and rubber from 3mm to 300mm. I still have the drawing. If anyone is interested in a group buy....lets talk about it.
Also...on that note....at one time they made replacement clutch slave seals for me. Problem was....at that time...they were limited in materials....and the seals had an 8 month lifespan. Now they have a huge range....and I am talking to them again. Ray
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ubercrap
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:00 pm
OK, I'm further along with the parts I've got and the disassembly of the suspension. I see now why at first glance it looked like the Rabbit control arm bushings won't work. It looks like to me that the Rabbit bushings will need a slight modification-there is an outer "flange" section that is too large to fit the control arm, but the inner part looks like it will fit once those are removed. There definitely is need of a spacer.
These fox strut mounts I got aren't 100% identical to a strut mount I have loose, but they are very, very close and should work just fine.
Ray, as for the radius arm centering rings, when I look at the mounting ears for the radius arms on the subframe, there is a black ring in there (looks like it is grooved and snaps in there). Is there just this one piece, or was there another on the rod the that rode against this one? They look to be in fine shape, anyway.
The radius arm bushings themselves look to be in decent shape actually, but I'm going to order some 1.75" poly rod, 60 duro, to fabricate some since I like the idea of everything being more durable and precise. The rod should save me the bother of having to cut the outer diameter with a hole saw. Also, I can cut any length, so I can fine tune the thickness if necessary. I've got to order a couple of feet of it to meet the minimum charge, so I can make sets and offer them to you guys for a good deal! This will save you some trouble.
Another question I have is about the strut bump stops (which, or course, affects the dust boots). Should the originals be re-used if they are in good shape, or is there something else out there?
Last question is about the eccentric bolts to adjust camber for the suspension arm mounts after performing the modifications for additional caster. Super Beetle? Or where can I find something like this? I'm kind of in the middle of nowhere here, so its not like I have a lot of local resources.
These fox strut mounts I got aren't 100% identical to a strut mount I have loose, but they are very, very close and should work just fine.
Ray, as for the radius arm centering rings, when I look at the mounting ears for the radius arms on the subframe, there is a black ring in there (looks like it is grooved and snaps in there). Is there just this one piece, or was there another on the rod the that rode against this one? They look to be in fine shape, anyway.
The radius arm bushings themselves look to be in decent shape actually, but I'm going to order some 1.75" poly rod, 60 duro, to fabricate some since I like the idea of everything being more durable and precise. The rod should save me the bother of having to cut the outer diameter with a hole saw. Also, I can cut any length, so I can fine tune the thickness if necessary. I've got to order a couple of feet of it to meet the minimum charge, so I can make sets and offer them to you guys for a good deal! This will save you some trouble.
Another question I have is about the strut bump stops (which, or course, affects the dust boots). Should the originals be re-used if they are in good shape, or is there something else out there?
Last question is about the eccentric bolts to adjust camber for the suspension arm mounts after performing the modifications for additional caster. Super Beetle? Or where can I find something like this? I'm kind of in the middle of nowhere here, so its not like I have a lot of local resources.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
As for eccentric bolts....most European cars use them in the rears somewhere...at about the same size. I know.,..that most suspension shops always have a local source where they buy them on a daily basis. This includes places like tire stores that do suspension work. Locally....the guys at the NTB chain say they can get whatever I need with about one day notice for about $6 each. Ray
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
Yes! There are a few suspension components that would make sense for a group buy: solid rear control arm bushings, extended hub for Rabbit front control arm bushings, radius arm centering rings. How can I help?raygreenwood wrote:I had one set (solid rear control arm bushings) made about 10 years ago. The company that makes most of my bushings is a CNC milling company that specializes in one offs of plastic and rubber from 3mm to 300mm. I still have the drawing. If anyone is interested in a group buy....lets talk about it.
Do you think you'll be able to get an even cut on both sides? Or will it matter much? If they work, I'll buy a set. Thanks!ubercrap wrote:The radius arm bushings themselves look to be in decent shape actually, but I'm going to order some 1.75" poly rod, 60 duro, to fabricate some since I like the idea of everything being more durable and precise. The rod should save me the bother of having to cut the outer diameter with a hole saw. Also, I can cut any length, so I can fine tune the thickness if necessary. I've got to order a couple of feet of it to meet the minimum charge, so I can make sets and offer them to you guys for a good deal! This will save you some trouble.
Do you have a p/n, source, picture? I'm not clear on this part...ubercrap wrote:These fox strut mounts I got aren't 100% identical to a strut mount I have loose, but they are very, very close and should work just fine.
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ubercrap
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:00 pm
Check on ebay for the Fox strut mounts- Part # ZBA-412-351?
I see no reason that I won't be able to cut the poly rod precisely- I'll use a band saw probably. As for cutting the rounded "shoulder"- I'll see if I can use a dremel.
As far as the spacer to take up the space between the Rabbit control arm bushings and the mounting ears, I think that there must be an off the shelf item somewhere that could work- no need to fabricate something I wouldn't think...
Edit: If one doesn't damage the inside metal part of the original bushing when removing it, maybe one could cut a section of that to use for a spacer.
I see no reason that I won't be able to cut the poly rod precisely- I'll use a band saw probably. As for cutting the rounded "shoulder"- I'll see if I can use a dremel.
As far as the spacer to take up the space between the Rabbit control arm bushings and the mounting ears, I think that there must be an off the shelf item somewhere that could work- no need to fabricate something I wouldn't think...
Edit: If one doesn't damage the inside metal part of the original bushing when removing it, maybe one could cut a section of that to use for a spacer.
Last edited by ubercrap on Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.