What will make a Bug competitive against newer cars?

volkdent · Post by **volkdent** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:04 pm

I'm modifying my bug quite extensively, but I'm not sure if it will be competitive in autocross when I'm done. What are the flaws of a standard bug that make it not competitive? I'm curious to see if I've addressed everything I need to.

Jason

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:31 pm

Remember, the more changes you make to make it handle, and run better, the higher the class you will be running in. I have researched this very topic, as I have an early super that I want to "fix" for fun driving and good SOLO competition.

Ephry

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:46 pm

You can get a bug (as long as it's not swing axle) handling better than most modern cars (at the cost of comfort). But, ephry73 said, doing so and being competitive against modern cars IN YOUR CLASS is really really difficult.

Here's a breakdown by class I wrote up a while back

Stock (H Subclass) [HS]
(Honda Civic Si, Porsche 356, Triumph GT6)

It seems very unlikely that a bug can be competitive here. The rules are quite restrictive. The car must have been available at US dealers - no mixing of years, and no european editions. You can substitute any front sway bar, any spark plugs/wires, any brake pads, any stock sized wheels, and any stock size steering well. You can remove your spare, your jack, and your floormats... that's about it.

Street prepared (F Subclass) [FSP]
(Honda Civic, Porsche 912, VW Golf, Acura Legend, Mini Cooper)

Possible but not likely that a bug could be competitive here. Stock brakes, stock spindles, stock displacement, and stock heads (no porting) are the killers here...

Things that you can changea are: free shocks, free wheels, free swaybars, urethane suspension components, eccentric camber bushings, free ignition systems, battery relocation, engine balancing (no lightening), free exhaust systems, and several other things.

Street Touring. [ST]
In between Stock and Street Prepared. Bugs are unlikely to be competitive here

[STX] an expanded class
Which may allow engine's up to 5.1 Liters NA, or 2.0 Liters Forced Induction. This is a possibility but the details are vague at this point...

Street Modified [SM]
Ford Mustang, Honda Civic, VW Golf -- NO SPORTSCARS

This is a great car to build a bug in. If you make mods as you go, and then try to see what class you'll be it, it will probably be this one. The problem is THIS IS A VERY POPULAR AND POWERFUL CLASS. Your bug will be fast and fun, but you'd have to a hell of driver and/or spend a hell of a lot of money to compete.

- All Street Prepared and Street Touring mods allowed
- Unrestricted Brakes (FINALLY WE CAN MOVE TO DISKS)
- Unrestricted Engine modification. Displacement, Heads, Type IV, Turbo are all open. (Must remain a VW based engine, though no restriction of aircooled vs. watercooled) Max displacement 6.0 Liters NA, 4.0 Liters Turbo
- Unrestricted Suspension using original attachment points (Dropped Spindles, Caster shims, Beam narrowing all okay)
- Min weight either >2200 lbs with less than 3.0 L naturally aspirated
or >2400 lbs with less then 3.0 L forced induction

Prepared E (EP):

You could be competitive here with a PURPOSE BUILT CAR. Plan it in advance for the class, and I think good things could happen, but again it'd take a lot of money and a very skilled driver.

Min Weight at least 1.05 lbs per cc of displacement
never allowed <1600 lbs

Lightening balancing machining all okay, but no welding to add material to parts cylinder size only 1.2mm overbored, piston unrestricted within bore limits, no stroke length changes, cranks unrestricted within stroke limits, valves and associated springs etc are unrestricted, rocker arms are unrestricted, pushrods are unrestricted, lifters are unrestricted, heads can be cut for compression, cam and cam gears are unrestricted, any pulley okay, fan belt unrestricted, modified oil passages okay, oil pumps and sump unrestricted, dry sump or accusump okay, windage, pickup tube, screen, filters, breathers unrestricted, clutch and flywheel are unrestricted, transmission and linkage is unrestricted, limited slip differentials okay, constant velocity joints, axles unrestricted, no turbos or supercharging, carburetors unrestricted < 52mm, manifolds, velocity stacks, linkage unrestricted, EFI okay, but with 10% weight penalty
fuel pumps and lines unrestricted, exhaust system unrestricted, emission control can be removed, tires are unrestricted, bolt or stud pattern, unrestricted, wheel spacers okay, maximum wheel size 16x7, maximum track width 60 inches, chassis and subframe reinforcement okay, okay to reshape cabin or notch firewall, engine mounts unrestricted to original location, bumpers can be removed, stripped interiors are okay, seat removal and replacement okay, lexan windows okay, air damn and spoilers okay within limits, fuel tank mods replacement okay within limits, fenders can be flared or replaced (fiberglass okay), hood and deck lids can be replaced (fiberglass okay), head and tail lights can be removed, headlight openings can be used for air ducting, springs unrestricted, even coil overs, shocks unrestricted, but only one per wheel, spring and shock attachment points can be moved, snubbers can be removed or replaced, disc brakes okay, rotors of any origin, as long as they are metal, calipers are unrestricted, brake lines are unrestricted, proportioning valves are unrestricted, e-brake can be removed, brake ducking okay within limits, sway bars are unrestricted, spindles, hubs, bearings, stub axles unrestricted, suspension arms may be modified, reinforced or replaced, superbeetles can convert to double A arm front suspension, suspension bushings are unrestricted, steering system modification is unrestricted, any ignition system okay (except magneto), generator/alternator conversions or removal okay, all other electrical unrestricted, bolt or welded roll cages recommended, required on convertibles

Modified D or E (DM or EM):

This is another class where bugs could be competitive. But you have to be very careful. Again, it's a fast class

Subclass is determined by effective displacement:
actual displacement for naturally aspirated
1.4 times actual displacement for forced induction
(this means even a 1600 turbo is classed in EM)

DM:
effecitve displacement < 2.0 L displacement
weight must be > 1000 lbs

EM:
effecitve displacement > 2.0 L displacement
weight must be > 1500 lbs

for either category the following apply:

All modifications from the Prepared Category are permitted (which are plenty)

In addition:
body shape must be recognizable as a beetle, but is otherwise free, suspension is completely unrestricted, wheels are completely unrestricted, at least one half of the width of the tire must fit under the fender, engine and transmission are completely free, may be converted to mid-engine even, pan must be basically intact, no shortening or lengthening, excess pan mods result in 15% weight penalty, bolt or welded roll cages recommended, required on convertibles

WELL HOPE THAT HELPS!!!!

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:00 pm

Of course it helps man! wow. That is a sweet response. Thanks a million. Lemme dig in and see.

E

volkdent · Post by **volkdent** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:42 pm

Looks like SM or EM for me. How much does it usually cost to run in these things anyway? I'm looking to sort out my chassis by doing these kinds of events, so if things go wrong under the strain, I'm in a safe environment.

Jason

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:31 pm

EM and SM are fun choices because the car is as fast as it can be. but honestly the most important component is the driver -- i promise you that will be the weak link. (i can say this because i stink.) get a car together just for fun, and get out there and get some SEAT TIME. you'll have wild fun, and then you'll start thinking about how to really build a car. and as for cost... jesus i don't even want to think about how much i've spent and i'm still not competitive. (though i think a great driver in my car as it was last year could have embarassed some folks in SM.)

bean_8044 · Post by **bean_8044** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:37 pm

There are other less known options besides the SCCA. I for one dont like the SCCA because its seems to be so driven by rules. Im not knocking it, its just not for me. When i was in Japan they had gymkhana and they were classed by drivetrain, pro and novice. Its a much more relaxed atmosphere and in my opinoin was more enjoyable.

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:47 am

I was thinking of setting up a parking lot for practice. I have the Ghia almost where I want it to be as far as setup goes. Definitely a good setup for AutoX, but a whole lot better than the Golf IV I drive daily. In the EP the Ghia will be to light to compete, as even with my fat arse, the car is still 2100lbs or so. SM sound liek the ticket for me also.

Ephry

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:31 am

Ephry, How'd you get your ghia so light? Mine weighs 1985 without me in it. I havn't tried to lighten it, but have not added anything either. As I see it I could remove about 50 lbs, but thats about it without replacing things with lighter materials.

Ron

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:39 am

Well, after the bumpers are removed, and I got through the rust, I figured it should be about that. Plus, I'm already on a diet

I don't have a spare. and according to my calculations 895 kilos is 1973lbs.

E

ericsbracer · Post by **ericsbracer** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:40 am

In the vintage road racing ranks, I think a properly (read-period correct) Super can be competitive. If you look at the U2.5 Trans-Am series, Treuhaft had some good sucess, despite being a privateer, no budget effort. The cars basic design hinders it on long hi-speed tracks, but on the shorter tracks it was quite competitive. In todays vintage groups, where the races are much shorter, a proper U2.5 built Super (in the right hands) should be quite competitive.

If your sole purpose to go racing is win, then buy the car that wins the most, make the same modifications the winning cars have done - and drive it as well or better than they are. If Bugs aren't winning, then as long as you stay within the rules, it won't really matter what you do, or how well you do it, you probably won't win, either. I accepted that fact when I chose to go Vintage 2.5 Trans-Am racing in a Super. Now - for what it's worth, I had all the period correct suspension mods allowed for a 72, with a stock trans and engine - and I was still able to run nose-to-tail and door-to-door with a well maintained (and street prepped class winning) Triumph TR-6 at Buttonwillow. Win the race? Never. Win the class? Probably never. Surprise the heck out of a few people who Never thought a bug could handle like that? Sure Did!! Raise a few eyebrows when we pulled some Big G numbers at the G-Force? Sure Did! Proud of the respect I was shown for the things I accomplished in my 'humble plum bug'? I Sure Am - and I wouldn't trade that for anything!

volkswagen50 · Post by **volkswagen50** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:56 pm

Don't forget to go and look at your local clubs website and see what actual car's you're up against. It doesn't matter what's in the class if they don't show up! Go through their archives and see what sort of cars show up for whatever class your in and then see in the point standings if people show up on a regular basis. If I had shown up at every event in my region, I would have come in third for the season as long as I completed one run in each race! Consistency counts.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:31 am

Hi there! I joined an autocross event here in the Philippines last July, August, September and October 2005, but that's in the All VW Class, but if you check the time of the Hondas, Mitsu's, Nissan's and etc... you'll be surprised that some of them are 5-10 seconds slower than the VW's, I use a 1302-s with a modified strut, sway bar, urethane bushings, strut tower bar, 1 inch adaptor, 16x7 Enkei 2 piece Racing Series rims wrapped with 205/45R16 Yokohama ES100, 1679cc type 1 engine (BLUE PRINTED), 4-2-1 exhaust system, MSD 6A, Accel Hi tension wires, Bosch 009 distributor, Weber Progressive carbs, a stock cooling system, stock 4.1 tranny with straight Shachs components.

Not Flashy but it does handle very well.

Here some pic.

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:01 am

I'm liking the Idea of prepping the super to be competitive and have fun, plus the changes may definitely make it "funner" on the highway as well.

I wonder if when setting up the super will the control arms need to be paralel to the ground for better handling, or if that does not apply to this type of suspension.

E

Bugorsh · Post by **Bugorsh** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:17 pm

The mods for a Super are not that extensive to be a good handler. Of course once it handles well you'll want more power to make the most of it. I'm setting my car up how I like it to be for me to drive so I can get the most out of it and then I will see what class(es) I fall into. I may not win the class but I plan on having alot of fun along the way.

Passing on the straights is all (ok mostly) power, but passing in the corners requires skill and finesse and the corners are where my car likes it the best. I love coming up behind another car entering a corner and when they see you coming they shut the door and take the low line. I just drift up and roll into the throttle and power by on the outside and then I take their line out of the corner. If they are going too fast and drift up then I crack the throttle and dive down low and take them that way. I get to smile while they are hammering on the steering wheel and berating their sorry excuse for a car.