I am looking to do the same thing. I have a few Autocross friends that have a set up like this so they can us a 4 point harness to help keep them in the seat. I currently just have a lap belt, and I have to tighten it down so it pins me to the seat so I do not slide around while cornering, but a 4 point "tuner" harness would work better.I was just curious if anyone knows some place where i can get a pre made bolt in seatbelt bar for a 74 beetle. i'm not looking for a whole roll cage just the bar that goes behind the seats to attach a 4 point harness to. thanks.
Just be very careful wearing a 4 point harnass on the street or in road racing without a roll bar (or cage). I went to a road race a few years ago and a guy in a Neon rolled his car with a belt on. He was wearing a 4 point harnass and the roof collapsed on to his helmet. With the 4 point harnass on, his shoulders couldn't move so when the roof collapsed on him his head was pushed sideways. Luckily for him the roof didn't collapse too much, because if it had collaped just a few more inches it would have snapped his neck. With standard seat belts, when the roof collapses, your whole body gets pushed to the side. But with the 4 points, your head is the only point that can give. I have both the 4 point harnass and standard seat belts installed and use the regular seat belt to and from events.doorpz wrote:yeah i guess i could do that. i just finished make some back seat delete panels but i guess i could just cut some holes where the seat belts would mount. i'm not really worried about the passenger seat so much just the drivers side. i don't think i'll ever end up road racing it but it will probably see a little auto-x action. i'd like to get a roll cage but the money is a little tight right now getting the rest of the car together so i think i'm going to hold off for now. on a side note who makes a good 4 point harness? i've sort of looked around but there is so many i'm not sure which ones are quality and which ones kids put in their civics. thanks.
That looks pretty wicked man hope you were okay. What kind of speeds were you doing when that happened? Pictures like that is what makes me want to upgrade my seatbelts and stuff. For the time being though i'll probably just use the standard belts at least until i get the car up and running again then i'll see about getting a cage and better belts if i have enough money left over.ericsbracer wrote:I have a great deal of knowledge in frontal impacts, and how these things are supposed to work.
WD-40 wrote:Eric-
I respect your opinions on harnesses more than just about anyones, but I have a few questions for you:
1) When you say you do not think the harness bar (shoulder belt mount to shoulder belt mount) would be adequate in a frontal collision, do you mean "It isn't any good", or "It isn't as good as a harness tied to a real cage"? I can see how the later would be true. However, I also wonder if the harness bar with a proper 4 or 5-point harness could be safer than the stock 3-point belts? (Note that this is for frontal collisions, not a rollover with a crushed roof situation) I think the bar, or more to the point, a bar mounted to the door posts, wouldn't be strong enough to sustain the "G" forces your body creates in a reasonable front end impact. Better than a 3 point? Maybe, but certainly a poor substitute for a proper roll bar with the madatory diagonal and shoulder harness bar.
2) With regards to the belt stretch- I'm sure you are familiar with Dale Earnhardt's NASCAR accident. The autopsy reports said he died of a "basal skull fracture", as a result of his body being tightly restrained, but the mass of his unrestrained head flying forward. Is there any thought in the racing world that some belt stretch is OK (perhaps even counted on) to give the body a few more inches to decellerate in a collision? Very familiar - and Simpson contends (and NO One, Not Even NASCAR proved him wrong) that the belts were mounted improperly and, due to that, tore leaving him free to move forward. Some stretch is expected, and probably for the reason you mentioned, but belt length plays a key roll. Also - the stretch is based on the assumption the mount will not move, and I'm not sure that's a safe assumption with a door-post mounted bar.
(This is of course with the assumption that the average racer with a harness bar is NOT going to be using a HANS device of any sort.) For what it's worth - most racing organizations have mandated full face helmets and a HANS type of device. At a Minimum, and mostly in vintage orgs, a neck collar must be worn to limit head movement. So in our case, the 4-5 inches that the rear-mounted belts would stretch... if this 5 inches still kept the driver's head away from the steering wheel, wouldn't it be OK, and perhaps even beneficial? The harness bar would still be required as a guide-only for the straps (to keep spinal compression from being a problem). 4-5 inches of stretch would be 'acceptable' - if everything else did it's job properly, depending on the impact. My steering column came in the car over 6 inches - extreme case - yes, but.... My gut feeling is by the time you put that harness bar in, mounted in such a way as to make it strong enough to do it's job - you'd have done more than just putting in the bolt in bar. You don't need the door bars, so interior access isn't comprimised much.
What it comes down to is - what's more important - convenience or saftey? I know it's a cheesy question, but if you're racing, you're taking a serious risk, especially with cars of this age. I can tell you from experience, you don't get "do-overs", and it only takes once to wish you'd done it right the first time.
I really do hate to sound "preachy", but I've met a lot of people who've gone through some serious medical recoveries because they didn't put enough emphasis on safety preparation. It's an easy area to take short cuts on the 'It won't happen to me' justification. It CAN happen, I know, and If it does - can you live with yourself?
- David
Thank you. I was thinking along the same lines, and I too mean no disrespect.I respect your opinions on harnesses more than just about anyones, but I have a few questions for you:
1) When you say you do not think the harness bar (shoulder belt mount to shoulder belt mount) would be adequate in a frontal collision, do you mean "It isn't any good", or "It isn't as good as a harness tied to a real cage"?
I can see how the later would be true. However, I also wonder if the harness bar with a proper 4 or 5-point harness could be safer than the stock 3-point belts? (Note that this is for frontal collisions, not a rollover with a crushed roof situation)
2) With regards to the belt stretch- I'm sure you are familiar with Dale Earnhardt's NASCAR accident. The autopsy reports said he died of a "basal skull fracture", as a result of his body being tightly restrained, but the mass of his unrestrained head flying forward. Is there any thought in the racing world that some belt stretch is OK (perhaps even counted on) to give the body a few more inches to decellerate in a collision?
(This is of course with the assumption that the average racer with a harness bar is NOT going to be using a HANS device of any sort.) So in our case, the 4-5 inches that the rear-mounted belts would stretch... if this 5 inches still kept the driver's head away from the steering wheel, wouldn't it be OK, and perhaps even beneficial? The harness bar would still be required as a guide-only for the straps (to keep spinal compression from being a problem).
- David
For a SOLO 2 car, I suppose a triangulated harness bar would work. For that matter, if it's properly done, it should work in most situations. I may have misunderstood the original posting-I was under the impression we were considering more of a homebuilt kind of thing. Thing is-if it's triangulated and mounted safely, the interior is compromised just about as much as it would be with the bolt-in roll bar. My bigger concern, and this comes from a lot of experience, is people tend to do safety things once, not progressively as the car developes. So the harness bar is done, then the car is improved, and suddenly the harness bar is of little value, relative to the cars usage and/or performance. (up on the soapbox) I just think that if you're going to do something like that, you might as well do it right the first time (steps down from soapbox).Thank you. I was thinking along the same lines, and I too mean no disrespect.
A) A Harness Bar and a Tuner Harness would be better than a stock lap belt for more than just keeping someone in their seat during hard cornering.
B) How severe of a collision would cause a triangulated Harness Bar to fail, or a seat belt to stretch, and would that type of collision ever be seen in a SOLO 2 Autocross event where the only frontal impact comes from a cone.
Eric has some of the greatest experience and advice here, and I mean no disrespect. I am just trying to keep things in context. I drive a low 13-second Bug almost every day, but yet I am required to wear a helmet when running at the track, should I wear the same helmet every day for the same safety reasons too? Things like this make it hard to say.
