Slow cranking, is it time for a hi-torque starter?

Bobby74 · Post by **Bobby74** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:20 am

I'm trying to get my engine fired up for the first time. It doesn't matter if the ignition is hooked up or not, the starter turns the same speed regardless. Here is my setup:

-2270 Type 4, 9.7:1 compression
-002 Bellhousing used as starter jig.
-OPTIMA Red Top battery, fully charged
-New "Bruck" German made starter
-Stock German starter has same speed

I started with a Mallory 3RLI ignition box firing a MSD coil but I think its drawing too much current because it would slow down my fuel pump when I would hook it up. Later on I switched to a Blue coil and eliminated the ignition box. Slightly faster cranking.
It doesn't turn any faster without the ignition hooked up, so I know its not too far advanced. I do get a little puff out the exhaust or a backfire through the carbs when it tries to crank. I'm talking 1.5 revs a second Slow.

Any ideas?
Thanks,
-Bobby

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:38 am

Sounds like a tired starter, or worn starter bushing..

The stock starter should spin it no problem..

Bobby74 · Post by **Bobby74** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:44 pm

Worn starter bushing.. hmmm.... It really does make a big difference? I was going to save the new bushing for my real trans, but I'll have to stick it in this bellhousing. Both starters were cranking at the same speed. Thanks!

synthesisdv · Post by **synthesisdv** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:23 pm

poor grounding maybe?

NextGen · Post by **NextGen** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:24 pm

Once you do get is started the problem my go away. I had a T-3 that I rebuilt and could not start drove me nuts.

Till my friend said do you think you did everything right?? I said yep, he said let's get out the old Plymouth Duster and push it. It started and never a problem.
Joe

Post by **Piledriver** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:28 pm

Have an automatic starter laying around?

Pulling the plugs help?

SHaft reaches the bushing?
The 002 takes a bug starter?
(been a long time since I've seen a 002...)

Bobby74 · Post by **Bobby74** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:01 pm

Thanks guys,

I'm trying to start my engine on the ground before I put it in the bus. Its hard to see the carbs, etc when its in that cramped compartment ('65 split bus). I am using jumper cables.

Even with my battery fully charged, it still cranks the same speed.

I replaced my bushing this morning with a new one, same problem.

I have a starter that has no protruding shaft (looks self supporting), but I can't find any numers like "SR17X" or anything, just Bosch and VW part numbers. It has a bad solenoid, so I'm replacing it with a known good solenoid but the bendix seems a little frozen...

Yes the Beetle starter works in the 002, but it wont work in a 091 bellhousing.

I took the bellhousing off to see if I could still turn the flywheel by hand. It seems fine, but it is pretty hard to move on the compression stroke with one hand. I hope my rockers aren't hitting my valve covers, I didn't see anything when I had them off before...

Has anyone had problems using Jumper cables to turn their starter?

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:20 pm

Bobby74 wrote:..................
I hope my rockers aren't hitting my valve covers, I didn't see anything
when I had them off before...

......................

Why would you think your rockers may hit the VCs?

Aftermarket VCs? Or do you have high lift rockers and a HONKING
big cam?

Don

Dave_Darling · Post by **Dave_Darling** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:53 pm

The SR17X is the stock 914 starter.

I would suspect the electrical connections. Do you have a HONKIN' BIG cable from the battery (+) post to the post on the starter? And another HONKIN' BIG cable from the transmission case or the engine case or the starter's case to the battery ground post? Ya gotta have 'em both...

--DD

Bobby74 · Post by **Bobby74** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:20 pm

SR17x was an example of what kind of markings I'm trying to find on the starter I have. I can only find Bosch/VW part numbers on it.

Well no, they're not HONKIN Huge... I would say they are 2 guage, maybe 1 guage (about 3/8" in diameter). Just regular jumper cables. My dad has some pretty honkin huge ones that I might be able to try out.

I brought up the rockers hitting the valve cover being a possibility because I'm running:

-Webcam 163/86B (.500" lift, 250/260 duration @ .050 lift)
-911 adjusters
-"gold" and "black" rocker pedistal shims (approx .040"?? I don't have my notes with me)

I thought maybe they could be hitting the covers. I'll look for signs of rubbing tomorrow.

This is the first engine that I've owned thats this huge and has this high of compression, so I didn't know if its normal that the starter wouldn't start it of it I am having a problem. On my smaller engines I've had similar (but not as bad) hard starting problems.

-Bobby

Bobby74 · Post by **Bobby74** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:50 pm

I was just talking to a guy at work and he mentioned that jumper cables have a very small contact area where the clamp attaches to the starter/battery. He suggested that I try real battery cables with ring lugs to attach to the starter for maximum current transfer. I think he's onto something....

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:07 pm

I had no rocker cover issues on my sons motor... same cam, sounds like about the same shim.

...and real connectors should make a huge difference.

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:45 am

Bobby use real battery cables and forget the jumpers.
Run a ground from the bell to the - side of battery and another heavy lead from starter to battery + side. Run a lead from battery + to coil + and use a remote button from starter + to starter spade. You`ll have everything you need then going to the starter from battery. It`ll fire right up I`ll bet. Bob

NextGen · Post by **NextGen** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:20 pm

I 'm telling ya, if you believe it is set up right give it a push and after it starts it will start forever.

Joe

Post by **Marc** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:17 pm

Bobby74 wrote: I have a starter that has no protruding shaft (looks self supporting), but I can't find any numers like "SR17X" or anything, just Bosch and VW part numbers. It has a bad solenoid, so I'm replacing it with a known good solenoid but the bendix seems a little frozen...

Are any of those numbers:
003 911 023 A or B or 039 911 023,
0 001 212 005 or 006 or 012?
...that'd be an SR17

I don't know exactly what the difference is, but the manual and automatic starters list different part numbers for the solenoids...