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Thats exactly the kind of info i was looking for. I did talk with Pat at CB before i posted but i wanted to see what other setups are running and im trying to get a handle on the the entire system concept. I have trouble tuning a system untill i understand how every adjustment effects the system. Makes sense that the fuel pressure has an effect on total flow of fuel through the injector. Less fuel pressure and more voltage may make for some more adjustability.

CB wants to put 25# units in and i suppose that if its a little light then i could jack the pressure up a bit more.

Thanks for the info.

Hello-

First off, thanks in advance for just reading through the end of this post... I just realized how long it became...

I've never really been to this forum on STF much before, but have spent quite a good deal of time on the T4 forum and a little on a few others as well. I'm no newbie to engines, stock FI, or FI operation, but I am a complete newbie to aftermarket FI part availability and compatibility! Help from you guys is most appreciated!

The engine is a 2615cc (102x80) T4 engine, the first-ever T4 engine to have our Nickies cylinders (Nikasil-plated solid CNC extruded aluminum), and resides in my personal REAL daily driver/touring car, a '72 Fastback, expecting a very long life and accurate tuning. My cam is not outrageous and it is just normally aspirated. I currently have on there 44 DCNF carbs with 38.5mm venturis I made, which is pretty good to get it going, but I really don't want carbs forever...

I'm going to be using an Autronic engine management computer, which is definately one of the best around. I particularly like the closed-loop variable A/F mixture control.

The induction system itself will be built using modified 914 2.0 runners (shorter length for different tuning), a custom plenum (to fit the shorter runners and to decrease flow obstruction at the runner entraces), and a decent TB (currently have 60mm lying around... likely will be enough). Of course, since it's a T3, I'll duct the intake air to have cold air induction, too!

According to my calcs, I need 25-30lb/hr. injectors. Where should I go about finding such animals? On ebay there's a good number of lightly used Mustang 30lb/hr injector sets for pretty cheap... do they physically fit into a D-Jet/L-Jet injector boss? If no, do they require modification? What sort of connectors do I need?

As for CHT sensors, have you guys had luck using a stock one in the stock location? If yes, what "threshold" temperature did you use between warm and cold? I've typically seen around 200F operating temp at that location... would just 125F or so do?

Regarding crank sensors, any creative ideas out there to put one onto a T4 pancake engine? I thought of a few, but am curious to see what has/hasn't worked for those that have already done the trial and error bit. One thought: I could use the access hole in the bellhousing (originally for the torque converter bolts on automatic cars) and glue a pair of sensors to the flywheel, essentially negating any balancing problems, and make an adjustable mount for the other half of the sensor outside the bellhousing... BTW, where should I look for these parts?

Where have you found that a good knock sensor location is? What sort of sensor should I get?

My ignition system will not be distributorless, but the distributor no longer controls the timing function - the computer does. For ease of simplicity, I'm thinking about using a later Bosch vacuum-advance-only distributor (the ones that use "regular" caps), removing the canister, and fixing the two plates to one another, resulting in a small, short, "locked-advance" unit. Then, I could remove three of the cam lobes from the rotor and use it to signal cyl #1 (or, a compufire could be used with three magnets removed). Good idea? Bad idea? Do you know if the Autronic requires an accurate #1 position, or if it uses the regular crank trigger and the #1 sensor just has to be "close enough" to indicate which of them is #1?

For aux. air regulators, what do you recommend? I will have A/C (evaporator unit already installed and the whole car wired...). Could I use something taken from a stock FI setup?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering http://www.lnengineering.com

[This message has been edited by Shad Laws (edited 02-10-2002).]

Well, I don't know squat about the system you are using but it sounds a Whole bunch like what I did in my Notch (haven't got the air cleaner cold air hook up part done yet)so I guess my "lessons learned" will be of some help (?). Have you checked out my EFI stuff on my site? Two sites I have links there to are off line at the moment but the injector site you should look at.

If you are using the stock 914 end casting, you probably could also use most of the stock fuel plumbing. I did use the rails above the injectors, which I doubt the Dorf, uhh Ford, stuff could be adapted to. I only had to make a steel line that ran across the engine from rail to rail and some new lines under the car to minimize the rubber.

Use 31 or 36 pound injectors, the 25s could be cutting it too close and you may exceed the recommended 85% duty cycle. I'm running 36s, what I had lying around, with a T2 regulator set at the factory 38 psi. Since your car is newer, your tank has the right stuff in it, I grafted a late tank bottom into the early tank on mine.

Go get yourself a 944 fuel pump and use the stock T3 mounting on the front beam. Just change the actual pump bracket to a coil bracket, tweak slightly to fit. Use a Vanagon fuel filter, big in and outs, tap the hole in the bottom of your tank for 1/4" npt and run 12mm hose from a pipe nipple screwed into a 90 that is screwed into the tank. This gets you plenty of flow to the inlet side of your pump. The outlet side you can put a filter on but it better be a metal one to handle the pressure. Just about any VW will donate banjo fittings for the pump. The check valve in mine came from a Golf.

Your results could vary, depending on your scrounging skills.

And I'll hopefully afford a set of your nickies next winter.

Have fun! I am with my Big Block Notch.

------------------
Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

Hey Tom-

Well, I don't know squat about the system you are using but it sounds a Whole bunch like what I did in my Notch (haven't got the air cleaner cold air hook up part done yet)so I guess my "lessons learned" will be of some help (?).

It will indeed... I am a newbie to aftermarket FI shtuff...

Have you checked out my EFI stuff on my site? Two sites I have links there to are off line at the moment but the injector site you should look at.

I have, but didn't catch that part... will look again.

If you are using the stock 914 end casting, you probably could also use most of the stock fuel plumbing. I did use the rails above the injectors, which I doubt the Dorf, uhh Ford, stuff could be adapted to. I only had to make a steel line that ran across the engine from rail to rail and some new lines under the car to minimize the rubber.

Anything wrong with the stock 5/16" lines on the later models?

Use 31 or 36 pound injectors, the 25s could be cutting it too close and you may exceed the recommended 85% duty cycle.

Yah... I reran everything tonight... 24lb/hr injectors need a 99% duty cycle... cutting it a bit too close! 30-31 will be fine. There's a lot of 30's lying around e-bay...

I'm running 36s, what I had lying around, with a T2 regulator set at the factory 38 psi. Since your car is newer, your tank has the right stuff in it, I grafted a late tank bottom into the early tank on mine.

T2 = late bus?

Go get yourself a 944 fuel pump and use the stock T3 mounting on the front beam. Just change the actual pump bracket to a coil bracket, tweak slightly to fit.

A few questions: why the 944 pump as opposed to an aftermarket one, is price better? What should I be paying for one? Also, is this of the single-in-single-out configuration, or does it mimic the early D-Jet-like pumps?

Use a Vanagon fuel filter, big in and outs,

Yah... NAPA has lots of big, metal FI filters. I use one on my carb setup right now.

tap the hole in the bottom of your tank for 1/4" npt and run 12mm hose from a pipe nipple screwed into a 90 that is screwed into the tank. This gets you plenty of flow to the inlet side of your pump. The outlet side you can put a filter on but it better be a metal one to handle the pressure.

Nah, the inlet filter *should* be enough, except for perhaps at the very beginning when I flush it out... but I'll do that out of the car.

Just about any VW will donate banjo fittings for the pump. The check valve in mine came from a Golf.

Groovy!

Your results could vary, depending on your scrounging skills.

Eh, fair at best maybe

And I'll hopefully afford a set of your nickies next winter.

They're a groovy little item

Have fun! I am with my Big Block Notch.

Oh yah! It's scary how fast that thing is. The really weird part is growing accustomed to it then getting behind the wheel of anything else... they're SLOW!!!

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to chat with you sometime if possible about how you found all the goodies to get the TB in place and the air cleaner plumbed...

I know that my engine really needs a 75mm TB, which is a somewhat common aftermarket item for a 0.5 Dorf Gnat-sum. Funny... backwards it really sounds goofy, doesn't it? They're on e-bay... but I wish they were cheaper... <sigh>

I called Australia today and chatted with the good people down there re: the computer. I had one misunderstanding: ignition is open-looped, not closed-looped. Knock sensing is to be available in the not too distant future, but not now. Oh, well.

Thank ya!

Take care,


------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shad Laws:
<B>Hello-
According to my calcs, I need 25-30lb/hr. injectors. Where should I go about finding such animals? On ebay there's a good number of lightly used Mustang 30lb/hr injector sets for pretty cheap... do they physically fit into a D-Jet/L-Jet injector boss? If no, do they require modification? What sort of connectors do I need?
</B>

Mustang 31 lb/hr from a 4 cylinder turbo Mustang. These are Bosch-built. You can also get Mopar injectors of unknown manufacturer at http://www.fwdperformance.com/catalog-fuel.asp. Their pricing is for a set of 4, if I'm not mistaken. The Mustang bosch peak and hold injectors do fit the 2.0L manifolds, but you will need to trim off the injector cap at the end. See the thread called "Intake manifold design" in this forum. I have already asked some of those questions. Ray G. answered them with a goldmine of info.


<B>As for CHT sensors, have you guys had luck using a stock one in the stock location? If yes, what "threshold" temperature did you use between warm and cold? I've typically seen around 200F operating temp at that location... would just 125F or so do?
</B>

There is a related thread on the Megasquirt web site. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirt/

From a simplicity standpoint, using the stock sensor would be the starting point.


<B>
Regarding crank sensors, any creative ideas out there to put one onto a T4 pancake engine? I thought of a few, but am curious to see what has/hasn't worked for those that have already done the trial and error bit. One thought: I could use the access hole in the bellhousing (originally for the torque converter bolts on automatic cars) and glue a pair of sensors to the flywheel, essentially negating any balancing problems, and make an adjustable mount for the other half of the sensor outside the bellhousing... BTW, where should I look for these parts?
</B>

There is a web page detailing a fellow's install of a sensor on his stock 914 fan shroud. Looked pretty good. It is linked somewhere on this site. Anybody have that link handy? As far as glueing magnets to your flywheel, I see no problem, but how does one adjust the air gap?

<B>
Where have you found that a good knock sensor location is? What sort of sensor should I get?
</B>

I am guessing as close to the combustion chamber as possible. Several GM models use knock sensors. I believe some of the sensors have tuned responses. Each sensor was actually tuned for a particular engine. I believe some sensors just make noise, and your software needs to look for it.


>>>>
My ignition system will not be distributorless, but the distributor no longer controls the timing function - the computer does. For ease of simplicity, I'm thinking about using a later Bosch vacuum-advance-only distributor (the ones that use "regular" caps), removing the canister, and fixing the two plates to one another, resulting in a small, short, "locked-advance" unit. Then, I could remove three of the cam lobes from the rotor and use it to signal cyl #1 (or, a compufire could be used with three magnets removed). Good idea? Bad idea? Do you know if the Autronic requires an accurate #1 position, or if it uses the regular crank trigger and the #1 sensor just has to be "close enough" to indicate which of them is #1?
>>>>>>>

You can view the Autronic pages at http://jubjub.mine.nu/autronic_info.htm There is some info about triggering, but you know what I think is the best and cheapest way: take an 009 POS distributor, maybe add ball bearings (ala Ray Greenwood's idea), and throw on a $30-50 Crane optical trigger. Then, eliminate 3 shutters, and you now only have 1 shutter remaining. Adjust the Autronic so that triggering is performed on the proper slope (whether it is rising or falling edge)


<B>
For aux. air regulators, what do you recommend? I will have A/C (evaporator unit already installed and the whole car wired...). Could I use something taken from a stock FI setup?
</B>

Gosh, I cannot remember what the Autronic needs. However, somebody linked a JC Whitney fuel solenoid that is a dead-nuts replica of the air bypass valve shown on SDS' website. There are a few types of bypass valve, and you need the right one. Yeah, pretty obvious.


Sorry for the long wind (not to be confused with passing wind).

Jay

30 lb an hour is way to small of an injector. I am making about 200 hp and my 38 lb an hour injectors are almost maxed out at 85% duty cycle. Just remember a used injector doesn't flow what is says it does unless you get it cleaned and sometimes it still won't flow the number.

------------------
12.70 @ 104

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by turbo6bar:
<B>[QUOTE]There is a web page detailing a fellow's install of a sensor on his stock 914 fan shroud. Looked pretty good. It is linked somewhere on this site. Anybody have that link handy? As far as glueing magnets to your flywheel, I see no problem, but how does one adjust the air gap?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the 914 link:
http://www.beezog.com/914/

Hey Jay-

Mustang 31 lb/hr from a 4 cylinder turbo Mustang. These are Bosch-built. You can also get Mopar injectors of unknown manufacturer at http://www.fwdperformance.com/catalog-fuel.asp. Their pricing is for a set of 4, if I'm not mistaken. The Mustang bosch peak and hold injectors do fit the 2.0L manifolds, but you will need to trim off the injector cap at the end. See the thread called "Intake manifold design" in this forum. I have already asked some of those questions. Ray G. answered them with a goldmine of info.

Groovy... I'll check it out.

Re: the CHT, I spoke with Autronic yesterday (which I suppose is *technically* today since they are 16 hours ahead). They've had good luck just using a water temp sensor in the oil, then recalibrating how the system reacts in the computer. I'll be running a thermostat on the oil, so this'll do fine.


There is a web page detailing a fellow's install of a sensor on his stock 914 fan shroud. Looked pretty good. It is linked somewhere on this site. Anybody have that link handy? As far as glueing magnets to your flywheel, I see no problem, but how does one adjust the air gap?

Turn in until you hear them smack, then......

I did some staring today... I *think* I could add some tabs onto the inner ring of the belt pulley and still make everything clear even with the air bellows on there.

Re: the knock sensor... well, it seems that Autronic is open-looped ignition afterall, so not going to worry about it at this second...

There is some info about triggering, but you know what I think is the best and cheapest way: take an 009 POS distributor, maybe add ball bearings (ala Ray Greenwood's idea), and throw on a $30-50 Crane optical trigger. Then, eliminate 3 shutters, and you now only have 1 shutter remaining. Adjust the Autronic so that triggering is performed on the proper slope (whether it is rising or falling edge)

Yep... basically the same idea as mine. Drilling out magnets from a compufire module (I have a few lying about) is even easier. The motivation behind the vacuum-only distributor instead of a 009 is cosmetic... it's smaller It doesn't need incredible accuracy, so the old sloppy bushings will be fine. Combine it with a FI T3 cap/rotor and you have a very short distributor... kinda cool.

Re: Aux air regulators, I was looking at the 75mm TB I need and realize that it has part of the mechanism already built in... so I probably need to go GM there... <sigh>.

Sorry for the long wind (not to be confused with passing wind).

Don't be... thanks for the help! I'll pass one along for ya... ewww...

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

Originally posted by Shad Laws:
Anything wrong with the stock 5/16" lines on the later models?

That's the ones I use, I think we are talking the same, see mine on my site on the completed engine pix, the left side shows sort of.

30-31 will be fine. There's a lot of 30's lying around e-bay...

You may still be cutting it close, did you allow for cold start fuel enrichment and "accel pump" enrichment? And for engine growth?


T2 = late bus?

I guess, the ones I have sitting here are adjustable also. Used a stock T1 in my bug, it's not adjustable. Got part numbers somewhere.


A few questions: why the 944 pump as opposed to an aftermarket one, is price better?

Maybe, I got one out of the junk yard, it was free.Plus it's off an engine of the same approx. size, and its Bosch, and all the other bits fit it.

What should I be paying for one?

Ask a NAPA store, The 944 stuff is available vitually anywhere due to it being a Bosch.

[b]is this of the single-in-single-out configuration [b]

Yup


[b]If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to chat with you sometime if possible about how you found all the goodies to get the TB in place and the air cleaner plumbed... [b]

You have mail!

[b]I know that my engine really needs a 75mm TB, which is a somewhat common aftermarket item for a 0.5 Dorf Gnat-sum. [b]

Why so big??? Your engine only sux every 180 degrees, a V8 every 90. So a V8 has overlap on intake of 2 cylinders, your 4 doesn't. Your engine doesn't need to fill a couple of cylinders at a time.

[b]Funny... backwards it really sounds goofy, doesn't it? [b]

about as funny as their facial expressions when ya smoke one with SB, I bet! Mine will be not quite as good as getting the reactions, nobody knows what a Notch is.

[b] Knock sensing is to be available in the not too distant future, but not now. Oh, well.[b]

Available now! Use a set-up out of a 911 aircooled. Been done down under for years.

[b]Thank ya![b]

No problem,

Oh, btw, the fuel line I made from one rail to the other was to bypass the old "5th injector", not required on modern stuff. And it is 5/16 which mates with the 8mm stock stuff just fine.

------------------
Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

[This message has been edited by Tom Notch (edited 02-12-2002).]

Hey Chuck-

30 lb an hour is way to small of an injector. I am making about 200 hp and my 38 lb an hour injectors are almost maxed out at 85% duty cycle. Just remember a used injector doesn't flow what is says it does unless you get it cleaned and sometimes it still won't flow the number.

That's a good point... I do indeed plan to get them professionally cleaned - no point dialing in bad parts. Or, I could just spring for new. I dunno. *Assuming* they actually flowed 30lb/hr., that'd be enough for me, at about an 80% duty.

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

Hey Tom-

Thanks for the groovy info! Also, twas good chatting with you last night...

<B> 30-31 will be fine. There's a lot of 30's lying around e-bay...

You may still be cutting it close, did you allow for cold start fuel enrichment and "accel pump" enrichment? And for engine growth?</B>

30lb/hr injectors (assuming they actually do flow that much...) put me at an 80% duty at WOT at my max power point (about 5500rpm). That *should* be enough... if I go used parts, I may go bigger just to accomodate for wear.

Re: Engine Growth, there's not much more I can do to this engine! The next big upgrade to it would be the cylinder heads we have going... but there is so much modification necessary (exhaust, intake, etc.) that I'd assume rather than nix this good engine, just build another... they should an engine of my displacement to get over 325hp normally-aspirated, so swapped injectors are the least of my problems

<B>T2 = late bus?

I guess, the ones I have sitting here are adjustable also. Used a stock T1 in my bug, it's not adjustable. Got part numbers somewhere.</B>

Groovy. T3/T4 ones are kinda like that, too, but they're pretty well-known to not be the greatest. I dunno...


<B>A few questions: why the 944 pump as opposed to an aftermarket one, is price better?

Maybe, I got one out of the junk yard, it was free.Plus it's off an engine of the same approx. size, and its Bosch, and all the other bits fit it.</B>

Gotcha.

<B> What should I be paying for one?

Ask a NAPA store, The 944 stuff is available vitually anywhere due to it being a Bosch.</B>

Very groovy!

<B>I know that my engine really needs a 75mm TB, which is a somewhat common aftermarket item for a 0.5 Dorf Gnat-sum.

Why so big??? Your engine only sux every 180 degrees, a V8 every 90. So a V8 has overlap on intake of 2 cylinders, your 4 doesn't. Your engine doesn't need to fill a couple of cylinders at a time.</B>

Well, with a 10000cfm TB, I can get a projected peak 216hp (and no, this isn't by some cheesy toy program like Desktop Dyno2000), not including fan, alt, etc. Anyway, at 75mm (a little over 700cfm), I only lose 1hp. At 65mm, I've still only lost 4hp or so... but I'm anal.

<B>Funny... backwards it really sounds goofy, doesn't it?

about as funny as their facial expressions when ya smoke one with SB, I bet! Mine will be not quite as good as getting the reactions, nobody knows what a Notch is. </B>

My Fasty is a late model and looks aggressive thanks to the couple modifications I did. Your notch is earlier and looks much more tame... a much better sleeper

Plus, I'm trying to hunt down a VW1600TLE logo and a VW1302 logo, so I can make a VW2600TLE logo - the sports edition they never had

<B>Knock sensing is to be available in the not too distant future, but not now. Oh, well.

Available now! Use a set-up out of a 911 aircooled. Been done down under for years.</B>

The sensor, sure. What good is a sensor w/o an adjustable computer? I couldn't use the 911 stuff as-is - the pushrod noise needs to be compensated.

Oh, btw, the fuel line I made from one rail to the other was to bypass the old "5th injector", not required on modern stuff. And it is 5/16 which mates with the 8mm stock stuff just fine.

Ah, gotcha. Muy groovy!

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

The 911 knock sensor is a stand alone unit that works somehow on an 009 or 050 with slight adaptation. Not sure of the whole thing but it is on my list of to do's. That should work with what you are contemplating, HellBug played with these and Gene and Gary were telling me about it. I'm using alum. push rods, no problem with noise.

------------------
Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

Hello-

The 911 knock sensor is a stand alone unit

Stand alone, eh? Very interesting...

I'm using alum. push rods, no problem with noise.

Yah... I have hydraulics, so it helps there, too. Hmm...

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

Hey Steve-

If you want a short/small distributor to use only for triggering, go for the 2.1 Vanagon 205 dizzy. It has no advance mechanism. I'm going to remove three of the four vanes, then set the SMC to work with it.

Very groovy!

I *think* I already sourced all the parts for my idea, so I'll probably end up just going with it. But yours is definately a cool idea.


John and I have talked about fitting sensors directly into the face of the cam drive gear, true dizzy-less then! I have even found a sensor that works in the oil/high temp environment.

That'd be pretty groovy! I don't care that much... I've alrady dumped the cash into a good ignition box/coil/wires setup (all Jacobs), so I'm too cheap to change it. I need the dizzy... <sigh> At least it will match the engine: the body will be painted blue and pancake T3/T4 caps come as black. Very purdy.

Did you buy an SMC in the group buy Shad? Jay and I did.

Nope. Back then I was still thinking along the lines of mechanical fuel injection with an analog computer I was going to build (KE-Jet, so it needs one). Now, with not as much time available and a lot more money already dumped into the thing, the idea of running something that is already debugged and finetuned sounds better to me.

Jay has a set of 300zx twin turbo coils that I'm going to buy. I plan on glassing in mounting brackets into my 911 PTP shroud to support the coils. Coil on plug man! I'll power them with an MSD DIS-4 4 channel CDI.

Very cool! Hmm... could you run the coils on the INSIDE of the shroud??? Then you could hide everything in the shroud for a disgustingly clean look...

Take care,

------------------
Shad Laws
LN Engineering
http://www.lnengineering.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shad Laws:
<B>
Very cool! Hmm... could you run the coils on the INSIDE of the shroud??? Then you could hide everything in the shroud for a disgustingly clean look...
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know how big they are or even if they will clear everything. I'm going to build a center plenum tuned intake system so they will probably be hidden anyway. I could just buy a Subaru and save a lot of time
Steve