4WD AWD Syncro Quattro..... etc.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » Thu May 10, 2001 8:58 am

Somebody out there make a AWD Type I. I'd like to see it be done. Yes, there will have to be some chassis fabrication but it is possible. I've seen a rallye standard 4WD Beetle somewhere on the net. Anyways, with all the AWD system that VW, Porsche, and Audi have had over the years I am sure all the parts are there, they just have to be put together. I think that the Vanagon Syncro transmission would work, it is set up just like a Type I. They even have those Type II Bus trans into a Type I Beetle kits now. Seems like the back, with this trans, would work out well. There are plenty of front differential and drive shafts to make something work. I think the hardest part would be the driveshaft in the center of the car. Well, I've put the idea on the table....hope somebody bits....I'd like to see it done.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » Thu May 10, 2001 11:02 pm

I've researched this a little today, most the VW side of it since I have very little Audi/Porsche literature. There are a few options, the Vanagon Syncro seems to be the best so far. The Porsche stuff has to be way too expensive. I hadn't looked into the Audi stuff at all yet. Well, the Vanagon wheel base is 96.6 and the Beetle is 94.5. The Super Beetle is 95.3 and since the Super has all the room under the front suspension area perhaps that would be the car to use...but think of an AWD "Trekker/Thing" 181 or even an AWD Ghia with a VR6 turbo

Michael Ghia · Post by **Michael Ghia** » Fri May 11, 2001 5:26 am

Geoff Thomas from Autocavan built a 4-wheel drive beetle a long time ago. It cometed in Rally cross against RS200's, Metro 6R4's and the like.
It was a 1303 with Golf front hubs, don't know what the front diff was...
The engine was based on a T1 case, Subaru heads (4-cam 16V) and was turbo'd. I think it made about 500bhp.
He used a 911 gearbox and modified it to have a drive comming out of the nocecone, I think this was done before the 911 C4 came out but can't be sure.
This is straight from the top of my head so I may have got a few things wrong.
Volksworld follwed it's progress while it was competing. Just grab a back issue.
Mike Ghia

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Modification is a form of Art.

gingabloke · Post by **gingabloke** » Fri May 11, 2001 5:30 pm

also from hazy memory...

Geoff Thomas' Beetle was before Porsche did their 4WD (in production) and used a modified 911 box and some form of BMW diff up the front.

G

Superman · Post by **Superman** » Fri May 11, 2001 11:57 pm

Check out the "Battlewagen" article on my site, thanks to Steve C. Oh, I mean AWD for the street...not 4WD off-road.

greywuuf · Post by **greywuuf** » Fri May 18, 2001 7:52 pm

OK I'm up to it. Only I dont have a t1 handy, does it count if I use a 912?

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Sat May 19, 2001 7:40 am

Hi
What about using a Subaru WRX box and rear diff?
Steve C

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Sat May 19, 2001 9:38 pm

Hi
Read in my local newspaper today that Subaru WRXs are getting sold in the US now, whach these babies kick the Hondas. The only problem with them is a very weak clutch and gearbox if you give them a hard time.
Regards Steve C

Michael Ghia · Post by **Michael Ghia** » Mon May 21, 2001 7:38 am

The biggest problem with the Subaru stuff is that the gearbox casing isn't built big enough to swap the diff around.
Mike Ghia

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Modification is a form of Art.

greywuuf · Post by **greywuuf** » Mon May 21, 2001 11:01 pm

Hmmm,
I just took a Subie Tranny apart ( mid 80's hi low range ) and it apears as though there is countershaft gear set on the input shaft that prohibits the Diff flip that I had planned on.... thinking about swapping sides on it to ... might be a little involved on the machine work though.... wonder if I could lock the shaft and remove the counter geaars ... that might work I would loses low range ( not a big problem I dont think ) has anyone been in an earlier ( pr hi lo range ) model from the late 70's that might know off hand if the diff could be flipped on that ?

74Super · Post by **74Super** » Wed Jun 06, 2001 7:15 pm

I would like an AWD Beetle as urgently as you, Superman.

I have researched the Subaru angle, (I was an avid reader/lurker/occassional poster on Ghia's Sube-VW list) and the Sube drivetrain just does not lend itself to being placed with the engine in the rear for the reasons already mentioned here.

I really want a "traditional" VW-type drivetrain = rear aircooled engine using as many VW/Audi/Porsche bits as possible.

This lead me back to the Vanagon Syncro system...very workable; but, not exactly cheap or easy to find. I joined the Vanagon list a couple years ago to pick their brains, I learned allot about the Syncro system and found out how desireable Syncros are (whole or in parts). I am constantly looking for a good rolling chassis-possibly from a burn victim, I have only come across one, it was in Cali-I'm in Maryland and at that time I was in a time/money crunch & subsequently lost out. Otherwise, I have found whole Vanagons but abit too much $$$ and I don't want to have to part out a whole running van just to get my drivetrain/suspension components...The folks over @ Vanagon.com would burn me at the stake

BUT, I am still trying...my minions are even now scowering (SP?) the countryside looking for a poor unsuspecting Syncro and it's owner,...and then BAM...I'll be out of some more money, and I'll have some more junk to clog up the driveway & p*ss off the GF.

I'll keep you posted.

Doug

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**Don't forget to remove "spam" to send me mail**

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Thu Jun 07, 2001 10:54 pm

Hi All,

Check out my site at http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/garage/1811 there's a 4WD rally beetle on there. It uses a modified VW box with a Datsun diff from what I remember. Go to the Bugs pages and just search through, I think it's a couple in.

Cheers
Steve

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Fri Jun 08, 2001 6:26 am

Hi
As far as using a Subaru trans etc i just had bright idea. I remember when a friend of mine fitted a Corviar 6 to his bus he bought a backward cam, so that the motor ran backwards to suit the bus trannie. I wonder if you could get a backwards cam for a VW motor and I suppose you would also need a backwards cooling fan, dizzy & starter, just an idea I had.
Regards Steve C

greywuuf · Post by **greywuuf** » Fri Jun 08, 2001 10:20 am

Running the engine backwards to make the tranny turn "backwards" works and has been done many times. However it is less than an Ideal solution as most ( if not all ) pinion gears are helical cut. Running the curved teeth backwards loads them in an altogether unfavorable manner you lose a lot of strength and reliability by doing so. Motors that are otherwise well matched to the tranny are quite capable of tearing things up in short order when you run them this way.

As an alternate... the VW trannies seem to be pretty well suited to 4wd conversion .. ( I have been around a couple ( i worked in a machine shop while I was in HS and my shop did several ) it requires a longer main shaft
and a bit of machine work to get a seal installed on the nose cap. as an alternate you can build an entire alumin nose. A little much for strict DIY'er but not impossible. in one 13b powered tube frame buggy we actually used a large ( 1") ratchet as a "differential" just welded a drive shaft on the outside and used the square drive for the front.... that way power was only transfered when the rear was spinning ... it worked for a rather long time. good luck and remember you only know if it works if you try it !

Michael Ghia · Post by **Michael Ghia** » Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:28 pm

The easiest transmission for this would surely be the 911C4 trans. They are not that expensive and will be able to withstand a lot of power. Plus you won't need a conversion plate to bolt the engine up, just machine the T1 or T4 flywheel down to fit the 911 clutch to it. You could use the front diff and torque tube aswell although you'd have to lengthen it by about 5 inches as the 911 chassis is shorter.
Mike Ghia

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Modification is a form of Art.