ShopTalk Forums | Aircooled VW Tech & Restoration Help

I just installed a set of dropped spindles ( 3and 1/2 drop) on my 66. I've also lowered the rear torsion 1 spline. I've since noticed a failure of the steering to return to center after turns. Also it seems to wander over bumps. I have the adjustable tie rod end installed from the bottom but the right side stationary rod is still installed from the top. Could this affect steering? I can't see how dropped spindles would affect caster. any help is appreciated. Mike.

Yes, the tie rod might be affecting you, but most likely it is castor angle. Most static castor is set in the manufacturing of the knuckle casting...ie: the locaton and offset of the ball joint or king pin mounting holes are different than stock. Check for binding everywhere..but also check your alignment specs. Any radical lowering can affect casto angle...more so on later cars with struts. I would find out what the castor is and then invest in some shims. What shocks did you use for this? Poor dampening can cause this also. Still related to castor...but bump steering can be caused by bottoming out or being too stiff...which is bottom the springs in the ball joints casing the ball and pin to float in their sockets (if you have ball joints) Ray

what make are the spindles?

....ok Jeff, where you going with this....

Hey Ray, couldn't even a little positive(?) toe cause the wandering? I know VW says 1" in on the front side of the tires as a starting point. Reason I suggest it is 'cause my oval had the same symptoms and my toe was way out \ / instead of / \. A simple "garage" alignment made a huge diff.

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'57 Ragtop
'59 Panel
'01 crewcab Duramax 4X4
'02 JettaWagon TDI

[This message has been edited by Plasticfantastic (edited 02-27-2003).]

the bumpsteer can be caused by the fixed tierod being still through the top, get another adjustable for that side and go through the bottom.

hey plastic, i just wanted to know if they were mine so maybe i could help on the phone.

.... I knew what you were up to, just had to razz the rizz a little.

mwamp, I changed both of mine to the '69-newer/larger adjustables up through the bottom. Not difficult, definately the way to go. Although I did have to ask for two lefts, my local parts house is still selling the non-adjust for a right/passenger side.

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'57 Ragtop
'59 Panel
'01 crewcab Duramax 4X4
'02 JettaWagon TDI

Yeah...to much toe out could cause this also. It will turn one tire a little too far out...it gets grabbing and pulls the steering gear with it. I still bet its the castor. As long as the dimensions on the tie rod are correct....and heres the key...if its not binding....that should not be the problem. Ray

66...actually castor Can and will be affected by the spindles, In two ways: (1) if the milling is not 100% identical to what factory had..then your castor is off.
Some refer to it as king pin inclination (cept if you have ball joints...you don't have king pins). Castor is a combination of the tilt..front to back...given to the stearing knuckle and the degree of tilt outward at the wheel top during turns. It is determined by where the holes for the upper and lower ball joints or link pins are milled into the knuckle. The lower one is situated further forward than the upper one to give a steering axis inclination that CHANGES...as you drive..depending upon the springing action of the two arms that hold the ball joints. If the two holes for either the ball joints or the link pin are not milled in exactly the right relationship to each other...you have castor change.
.
Put simply...looking sideways at the wheel and casting...you can draw a triangle to illustrate castor. Drop a straight vertical line from the center of the top ball joint or link pin to center of the axle. Thats the vertical at the back of the triangle...draw a slanted line that intersects dead center in the middle of the two ball joints or upper and lower link pin...thats the slanted leg of the triangle (the hypotenuse). The distance from the center of the axle to the center of the lower ball joint makes the 3rd leg. The castor angle is measured in degress at the vee at the top of the triangle. When your suspension flexes upward (hitting a bump)...the arms on your beam move upward in unison. It increase the distance between the two points on the 3rd leg at the bottom, increasing the degree of the vee in the triangle at the top. This is because your arms on your beam are moving in an ARC. Thinking about that....
(2)...if your suspension is now very stiff...because of stiffer shocks to control your now slammed front end....they no longer travel in an arc..so they no longer increase the castor angle when you hit bumps...so you get what is called BUMP STEERING...and also TRAM LINING (which is when the steering has a habit of following every groove). If you did any adjusting to the splines on the torsion arms...that also throws off castor. By the way..if you removed the front beam for any reason...and did not have a jig showing where it started...chances are...your castor is off. Ray

Forgot to mention. I re-read your first post. If you dropped the rear end...it raised the front. The relationship between front and back is part of hwat determines static castor. Dropping the rear automatically changes the angle of attack between the front suspension arms, the pavement, the body and the steering knuckle. It was not corrected when you dropped the front end..becasue you used artificial means to do it. What would have maintained castor for example...would have been to lower the front end by one notch on its torsion bars. It would have changed the castor just a small amount compared to dropping the spindles.

See the triangle illustration above in the last post? With drop spindles...you have lowered the corner point at the botton of the triangle...get it? so in order for that triangle to remain a 90 degree triangle ...the bottom leg would have to get longer...so the bottom ball joint hole or link pin hole would have to move forward..increasing castor...but it probably has not unless they actually built in camber correction...which they might...but that will not compensate for the angle change to the rear or too stiff shocks. . Ray

did you have it aligned? I doubt that the castor is affected much by the offset of the tie rods/spindles. Even when a older car is fully aligned it still needs to have a degree of toe in. I'd also make sure that the tie rods are seated properly. If the tie rod or the mill work is off at all the tie rod won't seat fully or it will be tightend all the way before it seats properly..Like plastic said...

we know Jeff wouldn't have someone install one of his spindles like that!!! lol

So do they make something like the camber shims for the lower beam mount for bugs that would this help with his problem ? Since the bus beam mounting is so different...

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'57 Ragtop
'59 Panel
'01 crewcab Duramax 4X4
'02 JettaWagon TDI

[This message has been edited by Plasticfantastic (edited 03-01-2003).]

I'm sure someone has something for it. First thing to do is get it aligned..so you can see if thats even the problem. It usually is part of it. The castor shims on a bus should not be to much different than a bug. Just a size issue. Is this link pin or ball joint? By the way, this can also be the main cause of hard steering. Castor is part of the self centering mechanism. You could....also possibly have too much castor. Themore castor you have ..the straighter the car tracks , but the more difficulty you will have in moving the wheel from centerline. Ray

Bug stuff wouldn't work. Bus beams mount to the frame on the sides (the shock towers) and bugs mount more in the center around the tubes.

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'57 Ragtop
'59 Panel
'01 crewcab Duramax 4X4
'02 JettaWagon TDI

True...but they "mount" all the same...correct? They are not welded on? You simply need a shim to rotate the lower section of the beam forward.

Just looked in one of my bus boks....The top ball joint has an eccentric bushing to adjust castor. It is on the pin end. The lower ball joint has an eccentric locating bush on the ball joint itself. This may be for castor. Installing a bush with the hole for the ball joint toward the rear of the bus...would drive the casting forward...giving positive castor.
Another method that may work..is to have the lower ball joint hole machined out to accept a straight bushing on the od with a taper hole on the id that is offset to the rear in location. That would also increase castor. Ray