2270 Testing

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:05 pm

Ok Guys:

Had a full day of testing a torque version of our 2270. This engine is built for a 181 and will never ever rev beyond 5K. I was definately not interested in what HP it made, torque is what we are trying to make with this one, and as low down as possible.

This combo has shroter rods than my STD 2270, as well as my 209 cam which is stll split duration, and has the same duration on the exhaust, as my normal cam has on the intake. The combo is working out great and made a best of 136 lb/ft of torque @4000 RPM, and a whopping 126 lb/ft @ 2000 RPM.

The HP numbers have a nice climb and peak @ 5000 RPM @ 119.7 not bad for a non revving engine. I took it to 6 K once, but could tell that it was not liking it and it fell on its face after 5 K..

We popped in A Mallory cent unit from John once again, and started playing with advance curves. In the beginning this engine did not like the Mallory at all, as we had it set up last on a TI engine. after 3-4 spring changes we found the pink and grey to work out great.

From the very beginning we had a problem burning the fuel down low, it was rich as hell until 3K RPM, when the fuel numbers dropped. I limited full advance to 22 degrees, with the kit supplied by John and upped the initial advance from 7-10 degrees, this still kept us at our optimized full advance reading of 32 degrees.

Let me tell ya, it came to life, and burned all that excess fuel, completely and had a totally flat fuel curve as well as torque curve. The HP and torque did not change, just efficiency...This is why I really like the Mallory, it is made to do exactly what you need it to do.

The next test since we had made max power from the spring combos was to pull off the fan belt, to see how much it pulled in comparison to the 911 unit. This engine was outfitted with a DTM, and had all std T I cooling components. It kept the engine very cool and it never got over 400 degrees, and I tried to get it hotter....It seems to cool this size engine just as well as the 911 arrangement!!

we popped off the belt and our peak torque was still made @ 4K, but it went from 136.9 to 147.9...while peak HP was still at 5K, but went from 119 to 127!!

All in all in my tests so far it looks like the 911 qnd a DTM pull about the same on a TIV engine, what we need to do is do the test on the same engine (which would be tough) regardless it still pulls about 8-10HP no matter how you cut it..

What these test proved to me is that:

(1) The DTM works (I already knew that) and that it will cool an engine of the same size nearly as good as a 911.

(2) That the Mallory distributor still bolted on 10% more power over anything from the VW line up, including an 050,009 and 205 VAC..

Tomorrow I will install the Vac Mallory with the same spring settings and work for the best full advance setting....This stuff is addicting, but VERY time consuming..

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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 9:42 pm

Thanks Jake,

I've been holding my breath waiting for you to do some work with the 2270! I can't wait to see what happens with your other 2270's, you know, the ones that are currently 150 to 160 HP. Bolt on another 10% to them, and then see what kind of gas mileage you get on the road with the fuel cleaned up. Im sure you must be looking forward to a test drive...But if your too busy...give me a hollar!

Thanks for sharing this info,
Ron

chigger · Post by **chigger** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:04 pm

Jake I love your posts as you base you information on real world info.
What I don't understand about this post is that if the mixture is too rich low down why don't you adjust the mixture?

JohnConnolly · Post by **JohnConnolly** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:30 pm

chigger,

"fuel mixture" can be adjusted with the fuel system, OR sometimes with ignition timing! A typical example is the 34 PICT carb with the 009. The "lean spot" off idle can be corrected with more fuel, or more timing (vac advance). In other words, the amount of unburned fuel going out the tailpips is dependent upon the A/F mixture, and WHEN IT'S BURNED (if it's burned too late, it doesn't burn and you have unburned HCs in the exhaust (too rich), even though the A/F is technically right on?

The advantage of correcting the A/F with timing is timing is FREE, gasoline is not! Also, by using timing you can use less fuel, which results in gas and mileage savings ($$$), and less ring-washfdown from too much fuel.

I hope this makes some sense, it can be difficult to visualize.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:53 pm

well, at idle the mixture was fine..leaning it further would make it hard to start and would also make it idle erratically.

The problem usually occurs between circuits, at 2500 RPM, just like this one did. By advancing the initial timing it burns that extra fuel coming at the transitionpoint, and it also helps to burn what the accelerator pump squirts in, which can be hard to meter and change on a weber, and not as bad with a Dellorto..

Tuning is a combination of Timing and jetting, they go hand in hand. An engine that is rich, can sometimes be leaned with more timing and vice versa. With a fully adjustable set of carbs (twin dual throats) and a fully adjustable distributor (Mallory) the engine can be tweeked to perfection..

From run 1, to run 31 which was our last one of the day, the engine made a 17HP and 24 lb/ft boost in power... Thats what adjustments can do, with the dyno, or you can do it in the car with a "seat of the pants" test and a logbook..

This tsting stuff is amazing, we are getting good at it..The consistancy is there and so is the power..Now I just need some stock in Amoco, since I have burned 65 Gallons of gas in 4 weeks time...No lie!

njv · Post by **njv** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:52 am

sounds all too nice.
what are the shorter rods your using in there jake. ?

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neil verdon 1966 t3 sqr on irs pan.

maf 914 · Post by **maf 914** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:12 am

Jake and John,

Ignition makers such as MSD, Crane, Jacobs, etc. sometimes imply their high power or multiple spark systems can overcome rich/lean conditions that occur with carbs. Is there any good test data that supports this? Almost every stock based racing car, stock car to sports car, seems to use one, so I assume they contribute something. Do these systems improve street performance noticeably? Power, driveability, fuel economy? Jake, have you had a chance to test any on the dyno yet?

Thanks,
Mike

Arkansas Jim · Post by **Arkansas Jim** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 8:13 am

Jake and John. I am not experienced with various distributors, however I have changed the advance curves on a number of V8s over the years. It does make a considerable difference in the power range. What I don't understand is how does this Mallory distributor produce so much more power than the others used. I'm not asking for their product's secret here. Is the firing point for each cylinder adjustable, indivdually, in order to make such adjustments to help produce this increase in power? Looks like to me, the advance adjustments alone could be done in the stock or 09 distributors. As I said, I haven't any experience with aftermarket units but this looks like a real advantage over stock types. For the cost, it should be. Just my thoughts. Jim.

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:39 pm

Jim,
The accuracy Jake was talking about is the
ability of a distributor to fire exactly at
the same point all the time. Variations of
this occurs with bouncing points and worn distributor shaft bushings. Depending on the
wear, the firing point becomes a range of a
number of degrees. Wandering in a four degree
range still makes that distributor almost
"99% accurate".
The mallory uses bearings instead of bushings. The optical sensing eliminates point bounce, rubbing block wear and is impervious to moisture.
Joe
Oregon Performance Products http://www.spiretech.com/~opshroud

Trebor · Post by **Trebor** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:00 pm

John, can the mallory distributor be setup by the common layman like myself? I am building a turbo 2258 and am very interested in this distributor. I have a timing light and a few minor tune up type tools. Do you have a detailed description of how a person can get this distributor set up without paying $500.00 to get on a dyno?

Robert Martinez (Trebor)

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:27 pm

Guys: see the other 2270 post that Tuna started for dyno charts from this engines final 2 runs, it was really impressive, and is not even a revver!!

Trebor..You can tune the Mallory without a dyno, thus far we have found the pink and grey springs to be awesome, and also 10 degrees initial advance limited to the optimized point for your engine (where it likes it)to work well on every TIV engine so far that we have tested...

------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com

JohnConnolly · Post by **JohnConnolly** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:29 pm

I need to know the engine specifics (ALL of them), and I can get you close. On a turbo, you have to have some sort of boost retard. The top-of-the-line mallory CDI has a retard-boost function built in. The distributor installation is not difficult, nor is getting it running. one beauty of Jake's dyno testing is you have #s to see what's working and what isn't. For mild engines, the curve out of the box is excellent. Large cam engines can benefit from a faster advance curve, but that's just a matter of the spring kit and some time. It's not hard, just time consuming.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:33 pm

I have noted the advance curves to stay the same on most TIV engines, no matter what exhaust and etc are used...I can email you a set of curves, so you can pick out what you want, it will vary some for every engine, but have been pretty consistant, no matter what changes were made to the engine..

I always start with the factory setting with the Mallory, and in a few cases it has been the best we found...The factory setting is the one that has consistantly bolted on 10% more power!

------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com

chigger · Post by **chigger** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:51 pm

Jake and the others thanks for the response. I assumed carbs have smooth transitions just like distributors have smooth curves. NOT! Thanks for bringing me back into the real world. I have to reengineer machines every day I should know better.

JohnConnolly · Post by **JohnConnolly** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 11:09 pm

You can perform these mods on a 009 or 050, or even a 010. Be prepared to scout out some springs, and weld the distributor to adjust the advance, and then grind it and try again if it doesn't work.

The mallory just makes it SO EASY, and has other features you can't have on the 009 (wider terminal spacer, SMOOTH operation (the bosch advance curve, even stock units, is non-consistent).

You can read our own Shad Laws's articles in VWT where he did just this, modify the curve on the 009 or other stock units. This is fine if you have a lot of time and no $, because it sure as hell is going to take a lot of time! We pretty much have the Mallory spring combinations worked out for different engine combos, so it's close to a quick and easy changeover. The optical pickup is just icing.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.