DUNGBTL Build

[DUNGBTL]

Greetings!
I’m doing a Subaru Phase I EJ25 swap into a ‘72 Super Beetle. I’ve mocked up the radiator/fan/and cooling lines back to the rear. However, now I believe I won’t have enough ground clearance with the routing that I’ve chosen. The car will be lowered ~2-3”.

My mistake was that I did not have the suspension in place when I mocked it up. So I couldn’t envision how the run the lines thru the ‘suspension compartment’. I can’t seem to find good pictures of a good route through, around, above or otherwise routing of the coolant lines past the suspension.

I’m using Gates Greenstripe 1.25” hose. Here’s my current setup…

IMG_7138.jpeg

IMG_7163.jpeg

IMG_7159.jpeg

IMG_7125.jpeg

IMG_7113.jpeg

IMG_7123.jpeg

IMG_7117.jpeg

My concern is the routing coming out of the frunk, past the suspension and onto the pan. Too low the way I have it now? How do other people route the tubes/hoses past the Super Beetle suspension links?

Thanks,
J.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

First of all, I would not recommend the use of soft lines like you have. Too easy to damage them due to the stock suspension much less the lowered suspension as you talked about but I am sure it has been done many times.

Also, the ~90 bends in the sleeved hose can collapse into a 90-degree bend that can block the water flow. You have "joins" for the tubes, but could the joins be done where the bend is then you could maybe use a metal 90-degree (or proper angle) tube there. Doing this should help take some of the loading off the tubes. Some of those bends where tubes run through them could end up being a problem in the future as the tube material ages.

Doing changes like does cause different thinking. I'm not positive but I don't think the oval tubing would work well flowing the coolant either.

Some thoughts.

Lee

[DUNGBTL]

Thanks Lee. Gotcha, understand…originally I was going w/hard lines for the 90’s. Looks like I changed my mind at some point.

I’ll revisit this when I install the new suspension so I get a better idea if I could run the lines THROUGH the tie-rods and lower control arms. That’s where I’m hung up. I couldn’t find any good pictures of the routing of the lines thru this area…lots of pics of lines on the pan (body bolt channel, center, under running boards)…lots of pics of the lines attached to the rad and going down and out. But no good pics of how they go past all the suspension on a SB.

Thanks again for the reply,
J.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Question are not always easy to ask as one can think they would look kind of "Hmmmm", but that isn't usually true.

I think it smart to ask questions then talk things out if more information might be necessary. You never know who is reading and might have an idea that might have what works good or clears out an other "something" one hasn't thought about yet. I've sat in many design meetings when all-of-a-sudden "it" is mentioned and everyone either smirks' or is in shock as the answer may have been so simple.

A lot of good knowledgeable people are at this and some other sites.

DSC00647 (2) copy.jpg

This is a bug pan taken down almost as far as you can. Remember that the VW (et al) can still twist a certain amount even if the body and everything else is in place and bolted in tight.

Lee

[Buggin_74]

Hi Dungbtl, sent you a PM

[DUNGBTL]

IMG_0163.jpeg

Looks like a plucked chicken Lee! Not doing that!

The car will have 6 pt roll cage, front strut tower truss, and rear Kafer bar(s). All cars flex to a certain degree under dynamic loads. Even race cars. Of course how much and to what effect depends mainly on the load level and where it’s applied. Hopefully my efforts will help the suspension work more efficiently!

Thx,
J.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

The pan shown needed all that and more, still working on it. Add to that like design stuff I ran into at work that caused weakness' problems with a design that appears in vehicle designs. One of them is something that is still bothering me with a cage design (again, "spherical radiuses). If you look up the term spherical radius it does not cover the version I ran into at work and what appears in the floor pan of a VW bug at both foot wells for the rear seat.

When bending metal (solid stock, tube or flat stock), the inside surface of the metal in the bend compresses and thickens while the outside bend stretches and thins out. At the radius of the join the metal wants to stretch out and can tear or become very weak. The manufacturing of the metal can also be caused by the forming place not understanding this. One of my pan's floors was distorted because of this and I had to carefully form the bad area, but I have no idea of what the material in that whole area is really like. I have seen roll overs where the tubes in the rear of the cage was pushed through this thinned out area. I could add doublers but what other dam(N)age may have been done in forming. It is one of those things you feel it is OK at but.... It is one thing to protect yourself but if you sell it, you want it to be OK for others who may not understand (a fall out of the 35 years of design I did before I retired [not an engineer but a Tech Designer]).

Adding the right 6-point cage to a full (still has its top for load distribution) bug body and pan can stop a lot of things or... maybe not. Since I play (lightly) on the sand I have seen stuff that one would think impossible (especially in a short amount pf time) with what was thought to be the perfect setup. A lot of liquid energy (alcohol and/or drugs), too much power and an ego all together late at night can do a lot more dam(n)age than one thinks.

Lee

I forgot to add that the Vinal covered vacuum formed 6000 series AL failed (thinned out and tore) at any of the 5 radiuses at the bottom of the object being made.

[DUNGBTL]

You speak truth sir!

Me, 35 yrs Aerospace Structures Stress Engineer, ret. 747, 767, 777, and KC-46A programs. And from reading your many excellent posts, my money is on you being ex-Boeing too!

J.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Started in the mid '60's as a Draftsman plus checking others work, later rated as a Tech Designer on 707, 727, 737, 747, DCAC and things I can't talk about all at the Old Boeing Company.

Sorry, I talked too much so I removed it.

Lee

[DUNGBTL]

Cool!
My tenure was ‘85-2020. You must of still been with the company during my ‘early days’. I remember the Mylar dwgs very well. I even got a few out of the vault in the late 2000 teens to facilitate some structural repairs on a production 767. Made the repairs full scale right over the dwgs! Good times!

J.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I removed some things because I talked too much.

There is a lot more going on about most things (design wise anyway) that most of us think, see or understand about.

There is a channel on some TVs called "How Its Made" (or something like that) that is interesting. One of the several episodes on making fasteners (for example) from the mixing/melting of the materials then going into the forming of the objects. Still, there is a lot of things that are not covered such as the "why" somethings are done and/or the loading/capacity (limitations) of things that are done.

Searches on the web can give more information but then you have to be careful about that too. I posted one example a while back where it was pointed out on the companies web site that the threads we formed and ended up being of a larger diameter than the fastener itself. One of several reasons that the threads could jam/break when being inserted or fail under use.

Again, most if not all countries have standards covering things like dimension (inches or metric for example) or the mix of materials and the strength of the material and threads.

Lee

[DUNGBTL]

The ‘theme’ of the DUNGBTL build is in the Outlaw Porsche style. I figured why not apply the much used Outlaw moniker to a bug…esp the much loved Super Beetle …and esp a SB w/a Subaru eng swap. I’m quite familiar with the vintage Porsche scene having been in PCA, restoring a ‘69 912, and owning an ‘84 Carrera. I was a kid that had a poster of a ‘73 RS Carrera in my bedroom while in HS. Always loved them…still do. So I’m building the DUNGBTL in a vintage Porsche, ‘Outlaw-esq’, theme.

To that end I removed the padded dash (which was hacked up for a ‘stereo’ install) and welded up the extraneous switch and vent holes. I designed a ‘new’ dash using 914 gauges which I covered w/German basket weave vinyl. I was able to source the same material used in the 914’s and early 911s. I covered the glove box door also. When you remove the padded dash, you leave a larger gap btwn the door and cutout. The vinyl helps reduce the gap…and I like the look! The plan is to have the black covered dash and door and the dash surround to be the Gentian blue color of the car.

IMG_8503.jpeg

IMG_8496.jpeg

IMG_8513.jpeg

IMG_8565.jpeg

IMG_8561.jpeg

IMG_9287.jpeg

IMG_9259.jpeg

IMG_9290.jpeg

IMG_9298.jpeg

I’ve since replaced the newer style speedo shown above w/a ‘silver dot’ so that the three 914 gauges are ‘silver-dots’.

Cheers,
J.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Very impressed!

Is the steering wheel, your hands and things going to reduce your vision to the gauges when driving? Just curious as what you have done looks good.

Lee

[H2OSB]

Those gauges are awesome! Not sure what else to say, other than "I wants it, precious"

What material did you use there? (I apologize if you stated this already, up above). I've been strongly considering the 911 style dash from Glass Action so I can run all three 914 gauges. Did you have them rebuilt (or rebuild them yourself...I suspect you can)? I've heard 914 Tachometers tend to get "lazy" as they age.

I'm running a Nardi, roughly factory diameter, wheel. I had a 944 wheel but it needed serious restoration.

H2OSB

[DUNGBTL]

Thanks guys!
I made sure the tach was centered with the steering column (like a 911/914). Haven’t check for gauge blockage. Currently I plan on using a 380mm (15”) wheel (probably momo Prototipo, or the Classic, or the California, because…Porsche!). Don’t know if the rim will block. Don’t have the wheel right now.

The material I used to cover dash and glove box…and will be using for the door cards and quarter panels…is German classic “Basketweave” vinyl from www.aaaupholster.com. I think it’ll go really well w/the Cobra classic RS seat I bought…

IMG_9595.jpeg

IMG_9592.jpeg

I have two sets of 914 gauges. Don’t know if and how they function. I was told that “they ran when parked”! However, I’ve watched countless YouTube videos on how to restore them and I am now an expert! I’ve started a cosmetic restoration and cleaning of them. I most difficult aspect, so far, is the removal (uncrimping) and re-installing of the gauge bezels. After cleaning the ‘can’, I’m using aircraft ‘speed tape’ (.003” adhesive backed shiny aluminum foil tape…aka, REAL duct tape) to line the inside as it reflects the small gauge light extremely well. VDO used white paint originally which yellows over time and does not reflect the light at all. IMO, this is the main reason vintage Porsche VDO gauges are so dim at night. FWIW, I also use this duct tape when I restore tail lights or turn signal housings. Oh, and I bought genuine speedometer needle fluorescent red paint to restore the needles.

The neat thing about the vintage silver dot VDO gauges is that they are constructed of all metal and glass, so, the metal can be polished and sanded and painted (I use SEM Trim Black) and the lens can be cleaned w/o scratching. It remains to be seen how they turn out, but so far so good! Don’t know how they will integrate w/the Subaru ECU/senders outputs, however, I believe this has been done before by Renegade Hybrids and others. I’ll cross that bridge later.

IMG_9384.jpeg

IMG_9391.jpeg

IMG_9394.jpeg

IMG_9403.jpeg

IMG_9416.jpeg

I’ll probably put a ‘how I did it’ post here when I complete them. I’m welder deep in 6 pt cage fabrication currently. The gauges have been carefully boxed up for completion later.

Cheers,
J.