Thanks
I do this with a phone....and it is getting ragged. My picture quality is bad low now. Just time for a new phone.
So yes a bit odd. But not unusual to put short springs in an IRS to make room for big tires.
Just instead of narrowing it.....I am using the shortness to make a gap in the middle.
Now this is just the main structure part.
I imagine a bolt in rear framework that holds the tail of the trans, radiator and the hinge point of the flip up body.
Mid engine fun
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: Mid engine fun
The urethane bushings and the ball joints came in today.
I mocked up one rear side.
Too much camber at where I want the height.
Gonna try the arms on upside down before I start bending things.
I mocked up one rear side.
Too much camber at where I want the height.
Gonna try the arms on upside down before I start bending things.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Mid engine fun
Just for giggles I copied your pix and edited them mostly to clear up some things and got rid of as much of the distractions that I could. I also put them in a file where I could get to them easily. I told you this was going to be an interesting build.DeathBySnuSnu wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:46 pm Now this is just the main structure part.
I imagine a bolt in rear framework that holds the tail of the trans, radiator and the hinge point of the flip up body.
This is the engine you are planning on using. "I do not have the 901 trans in hand" not sure what a 901 trans is but: "… The v6 is a little heavier and will be right in the middle of the rear torsion beam. The cut down 15-1/2 inch vw kit body will have to be extended behind the tub in the 8 to 10 inch range".
The body is going to do some limiting/dictating of things but it also depends on the direction you planning on going.
I think the pan is going to be the stinker of the build though. With all the weight difference and the torque the engine is going to have I think the pan is going to have to be stiffened up and lot. The cage will help some but there might be some other ideas that I tried that could be modified that could help some.
Got more pictures of the pass compartment of the body and just how big it is.
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Mid engine fun
It looks like you are serious about this so, if you don't mind, I'd like to make some suggestions. This is something I wanted to do but I didn't have to tools or knowledge at the time.
Being not sure what state you live in I will go by what I know about the rules where I live. On the pan, if you do anything to the rear of the tunnel and move or remove the serial numbers you will need to do through an inspection and this would probably be a big job. Buy a "garage camera": a dedicated camera to document what you have done and what you are doing as the pix and all the receipts you have to prove ownership will be needed for the inspection which is why a 3-ring binder, a ream of paper and the insert type of pages where you can put your receipts so they can go in the binder.
If you look up when the unibody was first designed you will get several answers ranging from the 30s and up but I seem to remember reading it was way before that. Unibody is normally the frame (pan?) and the body itself (usually spot) welded into a solid unit but Dr. Porche decided to have the pan separate from the body for probably several reasons.
This is not a complete tear down as the frame head and torsion system is there.
This is the bottom part of the pan which I think it the main strength. When the bug pan is shortened the cut is made just behind the e-brake mounting area on the tunnel bit care isn't always taken when cutting the bottom piece. Somewhere I have the proper way to do it but that means going through a lot of pictures. If you pan is not cut between the bead rolled areas on the pan I think I would double them up.
With a mid-engine rig then the raised area in the rear of the pan probably can be eliminated as it is just for the shifter hookup to the trans. With the engine being mid engine things change and accommodations will need to change.
This is my body lift... partly to raise the body for clearance but mostly to add support to the pan since the steel body is gone that transmitted loads around the whole pan and assy. The cage will have to do most of that job now since your body does not have a roof on it.
One of the other things I did was to add a doubler in the pan to body connection area. The idea is good but I used a 1" square tube (that is all the area that was available) so unless the doubler is attached to the body lift it will bend and take a set. Since you don't need the lift part I would recommend a 1 X 2 or 1 x 3 but then the 1" is really too narrow for what loads you could be putting in.
I chose to make the bend using the kerfing method but I think you might need to bend the material using one of the other methods.
Anyway, some things to think about which may or may not be good. My opinions are worth what you paid for them.
Lee
Being not sure what state you live in I will go by what I know about the rules where I live. On the pan, if you do anything to the rear of the tunnel and move or remove the serial numbers you will need to do through an inspection and this would probably be a big job. Buy a "garage camera": a dedicated camera to document what you have done and what you are doing as the pix and all the receipts you have to prove ownership will be needed for the inspection which is why a 3-ring binder, a ream of paper and the insert type of pages where you can put your receipts so they can go in the binder.
If you look up when the unibody was first designed you will get several answers ranging from the 30s and up but I seem to remember reading it was way before that. Unibody is normally the frame (pan?) and the body itself (usually spot) welded into a solid unit but Dr. Porche decided to have the pan separate from the body for probably several reasons.
This is not a complete tear down as the frame head and torsion system is there.
This is the bottom part of the pan which I think it the main strength. When the bug pan is shortened the cut is made just behind the e-brake mounting area on the tunnel bit care isn't always taken when cutting the bottom piece. Somewhere I have the proper way to do it but that means going through a lot of pictures. If you pan is not cut between the bead rolled areas on the pan I think I would double them up.
With a mid-engine rig then the raised area in the rear of the pan probably can be eliminated as it is just for the shifter hookup to the trans. With the engine being mid engine things change and accommodations will need to change.
This is my body lift... partly to raise the body for clearance but mostly to add support to the pan since the steel body is gone that transmitted loads around the whole pan and assy. The cage will have to do most of that job now since your body does not have a roof on it.
One of the other things I did was to add a doubler in the pan to body connection area. The idea is good but I used a 1" square tube (that is all the area that was available) so unless the doubler is attached to the body lift it will bend and take a set. Since you don't need the lift part I would recommend a 1 X 2 or 1 x 3 but then the 1" is really too narrow for what loads you could be putting in.
I chose to make the bend using the kerfing method but I think you might need to bend the material using one of the other methods.
Anyway, some things to think about which may or may not be good. My opinions are worth what you paid for them.
Lee
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: Mid engine fun
I do have the vin and the title for the car already.
I am in Mississippi and there is little to no inspection or regulations involved with it. Plus the fact that it has been titled in my name since the early 80's also helps. It is just getting rebuilt or upgraded/ parts repaired and will be registered as an antique (without restrictions) by my state rules. Plus they do not have any clue or knowledge to even know what it is anyhow.
The only request on my murdercycle was that the engine had been replaced and they wanted the numbers stamped into the engine (that did not have numbers).
So the murdercycle to them is a numbers matching antique honda goldwing.
So I imagine the chassis to look something like this.
NOT a pan. No tunnel and a flat aluminum floor.
I am in Mississippi and there is little to no inspection or regulations involved with it. Plus the fact that it has been titled in my name since the early 80's also helps. It is just getting rebuilt or upgraded/ parts repaired and will be registered as an antique (without restrictions) by my state rules. Plus they do not have any clue or knowledge to even know what it is anyhow.
The only request on my murdercycle was that the engine had been replaced and they wanted the numbers stamped into the engine (that did not have numbers).
So the murdercycle to them is a numbers matching antique honda goldwing.
So I imagine the chassis to look something like this.
NOT a pan. No tunnel and a flat aluminum floor.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Mid engine fun
Its funny, a lot of the restrictions and "must have's" came about when today's adults did things as kids which are still pretty much still done but in slight variations. The tight restrictions here were because of car theft then the reselling of parts from them. That and the not too smart conversions done in yesteryears. I get a big kick out of the comic strip "Zits" when I see the same things done that I/we did.
Your plan for a frame looks pretty good. I am assuming that there will be a front and rear firewall and it looks like even hanging pedals might be doable. Remember that hydraulic e-brakes are DOT banned and can be fricken dangerous: my blue buggy came with one and the day I bought the buggy the brake let loose and dam(n)aged the back of the buggy when it went rolling down the alley and almost into the street. It also jammed/locked up the whole braking system so I had to open a wheel cylinder valve to reduce the load.
As far as the floor goes I think you will need to do some beading or forming of the flat floor material to keep the expansion and contraction (tin canning) down. You could bead in "Deathbysnusnu" lengthwise on both the pass and OMG sides of the floor
.
Lee
Your plan for a frame looks pretty good. I am assuming that there will be a front and rear firewall and it looks like even hanging pedals might be doable. Remember that hydraulic e-brakes are DOT banned and can be fricken dangerous: my blue buggy came with one and the day I bought the buggy the brake let loose and dam(n)aged the back of the buggy when it went rolling down the alley and almost into the street. It also jammed/locked up the whole braking system so I had to open a wheel cylinder valve to reduce the load.
As far as the floor goes I think you will need to do some beading or forming of the flat floor material to keep the expansion and contraction (tin canning) down. You could bead in "Deathbysnusnu" lengthwise on both the pass and OMG sides of the floor
.Lee
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: Mid engine fun
The inside of this thing is more or less the same as a dune buggy tub shape.. ..just shorter.
The back of the tub will probably be all there is for a rear firewall.
I imagine some front wall at the pedals. I am looking at possible top hung pedals. But. I dont think I have the room. It has no trunk like area and no room for a tank in the front. The "hood" like area is about 1 inch taller than the torsion beam. The steering box actually was touching the body.
I will probably have the body an inch higher and the floor as low as I can get it. This thing is horribly hard to get into.
I dont have a bead roller....so the floor will likely have. v-crimps.
The back of the tub will probably be all there is for a rear firewall.
I imagine some front wall at the pedals. I am looking at possible top hung pedals. But. I dont think I have the room. It has no trunk like area and no room for a tank in the front. The "hood" like area is about 1 inch taller than the torsion beam. The steering box actually was touching the body.
I will probably have the body an inch higher and the floor as low as I can get it. This thing is horribly hard to get into.
I dont have a bead roller....so the floor will likely have. v-crimps.
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Mid engine fun
I have seen this episode of futurama listed on TV but never watched it probably because it isn't one of the more common ones and is usually on when I am supposed to be busy. Cracks me up though.
My blue buggy is an 80" wheel base which is what I suspect is what you have. I've seen shorter bodies but never on a more shortened pan. This was taken just before I tore it apart for the third time and removed just about everything but the cage, body, and the engine and trans combo.
I bought a cheap bead roller (HF) but other checking it out I have never taken it out of the box and stiffened things up like you see when doing a search on modifying them.
When you are making your tube frame I don't see why you can't Zee the bottom tube a few inches to give yourself some additional leg and sitting room. The black line with the arrow is roughly where the Napoleon's hat is. A couple of inches would probably give you some swing pedal room and lower seating assuming you might want it.
If you buy one of those sand rail kits for a hydraulic clutch and master cylinder all you have to do is turn the floor mount bracket over as well as the MCs and you can mount them as hanging pedals.
Lee
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: Mid engine fun
Some pre-tear down pics.
Low nose.
And the inside.....no floors.
Note the dash panel to tunnel.
I plan on completley removing dash panel and the tunnel.
Low nose.
And the inside.....no floors.
Note the dash panel to tunnel.
I plan on completley removing dash panel and the tunnel.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Mid engine fun
I re-edited the pix to show what I meant by Zeeing the frame which is an old hot rod trick to lower the seating area from the suspension requirements. It is still being done as well as putting a ladder system in unibody big engine cars.
I went out and did a rough measurement of the height of the tunnel and it is roughly 6" high (I couldn't get a good measurement for several reasons) but 6" is close enough. The dash on my black buggy is about 12" above the tunnel and yours, by the length of the shifter, looks to be maybe 6" to 8".
This was an interesting shot of the old pan... especially where the arrow is pointing. That is a pretty weak area for sure.
Am I correct in assuming the body is glass? If your interested you can measure the from the firewall bends on the front and rear flanges to figure out how shortened the pan was.
By what looks to be a seam on the beam around the shifter either that is a double up of material or more shortening was done there (I doubt it).
Lee
I went out and did a rough measurement of the height of the tunnel and it is roughly 6" high (I couldn't get a good measurement for several reasons) but 6" is close enough. The dash on my black buggy is about 12" above the tunnel and yours, by the length of the shifter, looks to be maybe 6" to 8".
This was an interesting shot of the old pan... especially where the arrow is pointing. That is a pretty weak area for sure.
Am I correct in assuming the body is glass? If your interested you can measure the from the firewall bends on the front and rear flanges to figure out how shortened the pan was.
By what looks to be a seam on the beam around the shifter either that is a double up of material or more shortening was done there (I doubt it).
Lee
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: Mid engine fun
Yes it will be some drop or z shape, particularly at the rear.
For handling, travel and geometry reasons there is only so low I am willing to go. I want the axle, spring plate and tube to all be nearly straight inline. No zig zag plates or squatted big angle on plates.
So that leaves a big zig down in the back and the engine hanging low in a notch through the torsion tube.
But the front though.......
I have drop spindles and cut the beams to rotate the grubs.
So the front probably will not need the zag back up.
The crevice at the shifter was the tar board insulation. Not cut there.
The arrow is all the shortening. And it was a terribly botched job.
The pan is gone. Very little usable from it.
I did find some photos of some of the original instructions.
Incomplete as it was.......what I got from them was.
Cut up a ghia
Use the ghia windshield the electricals and headlight.
Shorten ghia pan 15-1/2 inches.
For handling, travel and geometry reasons there is only so low I am willing to go. I want the axle, spring plate and tube to all be nearly straight inline. No zig zag plates or squatted big angle on plates.
So that leaves a big zig down in the back and the engine hanging low in a notch through the torsion tube.
But the front though.......
I have drop spindles and cut the beams to rotate the grubs.
So the front probably will not need the zag back up.
The crevice at the shifter was the tar board insulation. Not cut there.
The arrow is all the shortening. And it was a terribly botched job.
The pan is gone. Very little usable from it.
I did find some photos of some of the original instructions.
Incomplete as it was.......what I got from them was.
Cut up a ghia
Use the ghia windshield the electricals and headlight.
Shorten ghia pan 15-1/2 inches.
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: Mid engine fun
Right now the plan is to fit up the main structure of the frame on the floor with the suspension bottomed out.
Build it just an inch or two off the ground.
Then pick it up the 2 to 3 inches of suspension travel and set the geometry there.
That puts me with the floor being 3 to 5 inches off the road and bottomed out to not drag.
With the murdercycle I found 3-1/2 to be too low. Drug too much.
But raised up to 4 and all is good no drag on speed bumps ect.
Build it just an inch or two off the ground.
Then pick it up the 2 to 3 inches of suspension travel and set the geometry there.
That puts me with the floor being 3 to 5 inches off the road and bottomed out to not drag.
With the murdercycle I found 3-1/2 to be too low. Drug too much.
But raised up to 4 and all is good no drag on speed bumps ect.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Mid engine fun
(Opinion) I agree with the collapsing the rear suspension when building the frame but use the tires you are planning on using. I suspect that if you use tube and "bridge" brace it you will still get some flex (sag) in the frame if you bottom the suspension out which is why a lot of the lower frames are made out of rectangular tube then the round tube and bridging is used to spread the loads around front to back. On sand rails they use tubes top and bottom but when they are sitting the bottom of the buggy is about 5 miles in the air.DeathBySnuSnu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:34 pm Right now the plan is to fit up the main structure of the frame on the floor with the suspension bottomed out.
Build it just an inch or two off the ground.
Then pick it up the 2 to 3 inches of suspension travel and set the geometry there.
That puts me with the floor being 3 to 5 inches off the road and bottomed out to not drag.
In-case you didn't know... this is what Zeeing looks like.
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Mid engine fun
Just out of curiosity sake and just thinking out loud: have you considered building a ladder style frame with mounts that will fit the VW BJ beam, the trans and engine combo you are planning on using then adding some side mounts for the body and maybe the cage? I don't know if you have noticed that some of the car shows, when mounting the new high HP V8 engines are also cutting the bottom of the pan to use a ladder style of frame (and updated front and rear [usually 4-link).
Not trying to be sacrilegious here but just because you have a body designed to be used a VW pan doesn't mean you can go in other directions. If I were looking at the possibility of going racing and using a "Whoopie engine" I would also be looking at a good solid mounting system.
Lee
Not trying to be sacrilegious here but just because you have a body designed to be used a VW pan doesn't mean you can go in other directions. If I were looking at the possibility of going racing and using a "Whoopie engine" I would also be looking at a good solid mounting system.
Lee