Sandrail Body’s
- woodsbuggy1
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:15 pm
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Hello, not sure what type of riding you are wanting to do, but a swingaxle is not what I would want for off road riding. You are limited to a fairly weak car transaxle and very limited suspension travel. I run 5x5 rear trailing arms microstub setup and 091 transaxle and kingpin front suspension with 1x4 arms and 6" wider beam. I would think a rolling chassis or complete buggy should be fairly easy to find in your part of the country, we have them for sale in Indiana. You might want to ride in a few different buggys to help you decide what you actually want.
Good Luck
Kenric
Good Luck
Kenric
Good quality is getting harder and harder to find.
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Remember to consider "cause and effect planning" which can make changes required in almost everything now and later on. Get as full of a plan (what you learn then have to convert the rail to can be a lot) up front and... I am ashamed to say I learned, and am learning it the hard way, myself.VDub67 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:25 pm Lee -
I do appreciate all you say and demonstrate abouit the embellished BJ front end. Great pictures!! I will certainly take that under advisement.
What I'm trying to do as a first step is get a chassis that I can adapt my front end rear end to.
Once I get to that point, as time goes on (should I live long enough), I wil entertain ugrades.
So ... any leads on manufactures of basic chassis ?? Preferably in the SW (NM, AZ, UT, CO, West TX). Trying to keep shipping costs down ...
The spacing distance between the torsion tubes of a K&L vs. a BJ beam is quite a distance apart; e.g., it isn't a simple bolt in conversion in a rail build/design which is one if the reasons I talked and posted the pix. One of the things you might consider is going with one of the many styles of IFS conversions to start with as that is the current hot thing to do.
Converting from a Swing axle rear suspension to a IRS suspension isn't quite as hard (basically adding the trailing arm pivots) but it can be a pain in the time table then you have to buy the half-axles, stub axles and the 4 CV joints. If you want longer travel then longer half-shafts would be needed and maybe CV joints.
Again, the seating, location and number of them, is one thing to do up front. Also short back vs. long back, while it is an opinion (that can be structural as far a loading going on), can made a difference if you change engines sometimes later along (a very common thing to see).
Not trying to be bossy but I have seen this stuff go on for 30 years now especially with some friends I have (who are old now and dying off basically due to age) who each have had at least two different styles of rails.
Lee
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- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:14 am
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Everything that is said here in the last 2 posts - Woodsbuggy1 and Lee - are things I've already thought of.
I seem to continue getting questions instead of answers.
To some of the recent questions:
I am not comtemplating rugged/gnarly use. No competition. Think of it as an offroad rec. vehicle.
For nostalgic reasons, I insist on using my '67 equipment (as I described).
2 seat
Over the past 25 yers, I haekept a catalog of manufacturers - some in California, some in Florida, that make chassis that allow a BJ front end to be bolted in and swing arm rear end to be welded in. Some of these have gone by the wayside, which I think I said in my initial post.
So I return to my original question:
Any leads on manufactures of basic chassis as I have described ?? Preferably in the SW (NM, AZ, UT, CO, West TX). Trying to keep shipping costs down ... Any specific sources would be appreciated.
I seem to continue getting questions instead of answers.
To some of the recent questions:
I am not comtemplating rugged/gnarly use. No competition. Think of it as an offroad rec. vehicle.
For nostalgic reasons, I insist on using my '67 equipment (as I described).
2 seat
Over the past 25 yers, I haekept a catalog of manufacturers - some in California, some in Florida, that make chassis that allow a BJ front end to be bolted in and swing arm rear end to be welded in. Some of these have gone by the wayside, which I think I said in my initial post.
So I return to my original question:
Any leads on manufactures of basic chassis as I have described ?? Preferably in the SW (NM, AZ, UT, CO, West TX). Trying to keep shipping costs down ... Any specific sources would be appreciated.
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Sorry about the "same answers" but they were based on 30 years of riding on several of the dunes here on the upper left coast, that plus being around a lot of sand rail riders and what they have and are going through updating their rides. The ATVs are now so much more common and there are this time of the year a lot of used tube buggies for sale now days partly because of them.
The advice was for what it is worth and other than the first URL that did give you there was least one in CA (I think) I don't know just who is making tube buggies in the southwest now days as things are pretty much as you originally said; they did both glass buggies and pans for them and sand rails of several different styles. There was a guy in Portland OR that was custom making them but not sure if he is still doing it or what he is doing. As us older guys are disappearing I am hearing less and less about things.
Lee
The advice was for what it is worth and other than the first URL that did give you there was least one in CA (I think) I don't know just who is making tube buggies in the southwest now days as things are pretty much as you originally said; they did both glass buggies and pans for them and sand rails of several different styles. There was a guy in Portland OR that was custom making them but not sure if he is still doing it or what he is doing. As us older guys are disappearing I am hearing less and less about things.
Lee
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Sandrail Body’s
I did a search this AM to see who was making and selling kits or fully welded sand rails and it seems you are correct, most of the stuff I saw was more towards the right center or right coast. I guess the lefties gave up with the ATVs now as popular as they are.
You might try searching for used/old sand rails being sold but you have to be very careful there as some of them have been beat or modified to death too which can be easy or not so easy to determine.
I'm posting this for just-in-case reference as Dustymohave posted this years ago as how to fix joints... not butt fit joining.
Keep us informed on your search and what you come up with and maybe we can help with an upgrade if needed.
Lee
You might try searching for used/old sand rails being sold but you have to be very careful there as some of them have been beat or modified to death too which can be easy or not so easy to determine.
I'm posting this for just-in-case reference as Dustymohave posted this years ago as how to fix joints... not butt fit joining.
Keep us informed on your search and what you come up with and maybe we can help with an upgrade if needed.
Lee
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- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:14 am
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions Lee. Quite useful and very much appreciated !! You've obviously been around this for a long time.
In a cursory search, I found Acme Car Co. - https://acmecarco.com/
Acme purchsed Barrien Buggies, which used to in MI. While not disclosed on their website, I learned that Acme is in New Cumberland, PA. I sent them an e-mail ([email protected]) but no reponse. I just called and spoke with "Tyler", who suggested that the ideal chassis for what I want to do is the "Warrior", w/ a 95" wheel base. He also steered to Faron Smith at one of their outlets in TX: https://109dunebuggies.com/
TX is much closer to me than PA.
Here (btw) is a nice guide Acme posted:
https://acmecarco.com/buying-a-buggy-101/
I will try to send you a private message Lee.
Cheers,
Tommy
In a cursory search, I found Acme Car Co. - https://acmecarco.com/
Acme purchsed Barrien Buggies, which used to in MI. While not disclosed on their website, I learned that Acme is in New Cumberland, PA. I sent them an e-mail ([email protected]) but no reponse. I just called and spoke with "Tyler", who suggested that the ideal chassis for what I want to do is the "Warrior", w/ a 95" wheel base. He also steered to Faron Smith at one of their outlets in TX: https://109dunebuggies.com/
TX is much closer to me than PA.
Here (btw) is a nice guide Acme posted:
https://acmecarco.com/buying-a-buggy-101/
I will try to send you a private message Lee.
Cheers,
Tommy
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Sandrail Body’s
I think the "Warrior" is an older model and probably and, in my opinion, is what I would probably recommend. It is a long back which I think gives some extra strength and rear end protection. You should be able to put your swing axle in it but the BJ beam would be part of the build order (remember the distance between the upper tube and the lower tube of the two VW front beams are different which makes the build a bit different.
Protection and entrance to the "squat" area should be OK . Did you ask about the style of turning brakes they recommend; e.g., up-rite single handle (push-pull) or more of a laydown handle or the same with dual handles (see the next paragraph). The dual handle brakes do have one advantage and that is if you lightly pull both handles at the same time you can somewhat lock the diff so both wheels are being driven.
If it is close enough to you I would do a sit-in test as seat height and steering wheel placement and location plus the ability of moving things for good access is better known. This sounds to be obvious thing but the seat style and location is so important. One of our 2 rails is more compact so seats and turning brake location is a pain while the other one is OK.
Big difference between setting up for an under 5'-ish driver and a over 6' driver like I have to do with my black buggy. Setting the pass seat so the driver has better side visibility is something to be aware of too besides just accommodating the passenger.
Lee
II got and answered the PM but no reply yet.
Lee
Protection and entrance to the "squat" area should be OK . Did you ask about the style of turning brakes they recommend; e.g., up-rite single handle (push-pull) or more of a laydown handle or the same with dual handles (see the next paragraph). The dual handle brakes do have one advantage and that is if you lightly pull both handles at the same time you can somewhat lock the diff so both wheels are being driven.
If it is close enough to you I would do a sit-in test as seat height and steering wheel placement and location plus the ability of moving things for good access is better known. This sounds to be obvious thing but the seat style and location is so important. One of our 2 rails is more compact so seats and turning brake location is a pain while the other one is OK.
Big difference between setting up for an under 5'-ish driver and a over 6' driver like I have to do with my black buggy. Setting the pass seat so the driver has better side visibility is something to be aware of too besides just accommodating the passenger.
Lee
II got and answered the PM but no reply yet.
Lee
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- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:14 am
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Hi Lee. More good thoughts from your rail brain.
I actualy wasn't thinking of installing "turning brakes", but rather the stock brakes (drums front and reaar). With more money, I might like to convert to discs in the front down the road.
Your seat check advice is good but may be inpossible due to lack of proximity. I will probably have to just get what I get and manage from there. I'm 5'9". And seats are something I don't even have yet.
At Acme, here are 7 2-seat frames they make:
https://acmecarco.com/2seaters/
You will see Warrior, but also others, including 4 with 100" wheelbase. You'll notice that the front end doesn't actually bolt on, but fastens with clamps.
I plan to contact 109 Dune Buggies today.
I got your PM response, Lee - thanks. I will respond soon.
Cheers,
Tommy
I actualy wasn't thinking of installing "turning brakes", but rather the stock brakes (drums front and reaar). With more money, I might like to convert to discs in the front down the road.
Your seat check advice is good but may be inpossible due to lack of proximity. I will probably have to just get what I get and manage from there. I'm 5'9". And seats are something I don't even have yet.
At Acme, here are 7 2-seat frames they make:
https://acmecarco.com/2seaters/
You will see Warrior, but also others, including 4 with 100" wheelbase. You'll notice that the front end doesn't actually bolt on, but fastens with clamps.
I plan to contact 109 Dune Buggies today.
I got your PM response, Lee - thanks. I will respond soon.
Cheers,
Tommy
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Thanks, that tells me a lot.
Stock brakes can work front and rear but are less powerful than discs. The main problem would be the E-brake hook up but that shouldn't be too bad.
Turning brakes do have some advantages over "can" brakes at times even on simple trails. Back in the 60's I had a 1942 MB Jeep from WWII and there were a couple of times, knowing what I know now, I wish I had them.
There is one other thing to the seat thing and that is that the underside of the cage should be no less than 4" from your head. One of the groups we knew on the dune found out the hard way when one of them got tanked up and rolled his rail, it dug in and he broke his neck and was a quadriplegic for 8 or 10 years before he passed. Even in dirt your body can stretch some during violent actions so it is an advised precaution.
Yes, the beams are clamped on but they are also set up for the certain style of beam being used; e.g., King and Link (K&L) or Ball-joint again because of the distance difference between beam tubes.
This is a pix of a rail that one of our group was given to be taken home and put back together with some updates.
Yes, the beam is clamped on. I had to convert this from a AL beam to a stock K&K beam because the rack and pinion steering they used wasn't long enough to allow for anything near proper adjustment with the slightly wider beam.
This is the rail after being put back together and some updates made. It has been sitting like this for several years now waiting for the engine to be wired and a couple other things to be done.
It is a short wheel base rig and is a short back buggy. It had an 1835 in it and would pop wheelies as easy as one would want.
Lee
Stock brakes can work front and rear but are less powerful than discs. The main problem would be the E-brake hook up but that shouldn't be too bad.
Turning brakes do have some advantages over "can" brakes at times even on simple trails. Back in the 60's I had a 1942 MB Jeep from WWII and there were a couple of times, knowing what I know now, I wish I had them.
There is one other thing to the seat thing and that is that the underside of the cage should be no less than 4" from your head. One of the groups we knew on the dune found out the hard way when one of them got tanked up and rolled his rail, it dug in and he broke his neck and was a quadriplegic for 8 or 10 years before he passed. Even in dirt your body can stretch some during violent actions so it is an advised precaution.
Yes, the beams are clamped on but they are also set up for the certain style of beam being used; e.g., King and Link (K&L) or Ball-joint again because of the distance difference between beam tubes.
This is a pix of a rail that one of our group was given to be taken home and put back together with some updates.
Yes, the beam is clamped on. I had to convert this from a AL beam to a stock K&K beam because the rack and pinion steering they used wasn't long enough to allow for anything near proper adjustment with the slightly wider beam.
This is the rail after being put back together and some updates made. It has been sitting like this for several years now waiting for the engine to be wired and a couple other things to be done.
It is a short wheel base rig and is a short back buggy. It had an 1835 in it and would pop wheelies as easy as one would want.
Lee
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- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:14 am
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Your point about head clearance is well taken. So sorry to hear about that other dude's misfortune.
Nice looking buggy. Looks like loads of fun !!
Nice looking buggy. Looks like loads of fun !!
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- Posts: 17729
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Sandrail Body’s
Tommy, a rehash: it isn't that unusual for people often change and upgrade after either a long or short time of use of their new toy(s) which is one of the reasons I started out the conversation the way I did.
Often done by accident, they start with a used rail and drive it for a while then the changes start to happen as they learn more and get more aggressive... usually. Finally they they decide they are set for what they really want and the new rail comes in... then the upgrades start to follow .
The rear end upgrade isn't that hard ($$$) and can be done several ways you should be OK but it is the front end upgrade, while simple (maybe) is a bit different as you have to cut the upper front of rail for the K&L beam and the upper clamps fpr the beam while keeping the layback of the beam correctly for a correct alignment (I think it is 6-degrees but I haven't thought about it for a while ?).
If you are going to spend a whole lot of Globnics on a new rail (which I think should be a good idea to guarantee what you got is what you want and done correctly... no hash ups) so be sure you leave room and $$$ for changes/upgrades.
What set this off was that I was looking for something on line and ran into a set of bus axles and CV joints (they looked rusty in the pix) for sale. The same for a front beam that was being posted for sale. Even if you did not go bus and only decided to upgraded to a stock IRS setup later on it is going to cost you probably more with usable stock parts becoming harder and more expensive to find now days.
Just something more to drive you crazy .
Lee
Often done by accident, they start with a used rail and drive it for a while then the changes start to happen as they learn more and get more aggressive... usually. Finally they they decide they are set for what they really want and the new rail comes in... then the upgrades start to follow .
The rear end upgrade isn't that hard ($$$) and can be done several ways you should be OK but it is the front end upgrade, while simple (maybe) is a bit different as you have to cut the upper front of rail for the K&L beam and the upper clamps fpr the beam while keeping the layback of the beam correctly for a correct alignment (I think it is 6-degrees but I haven't thought about it for a while ?).
If you are going to spend a whole lot of Globnics on a new rail (which I think should be a good idea to guarantee what you got is what you want and done correctly... no hash ups) so be sure you leave room and $$$ for changes/upgrades.
What set this off was that I was looking for something on line and ran into a set of bus axles and CV joints (they looked rusty in the pix) for sale. The same for a front beam that was being posted for sale. Even if you did not go bus and only decided to upgraded to a stock IRS setup later on it is going to cost you probably more with usable stock parts becoming harder and more expensive to find now days.
Just something more to drive you crazy .
Lee