Rear sway bar vs camber compensator

[74EMPI]

Are these mutually exclusive or can they be used in conjunction with each other? I want to improve the handling of my swing axle car as much as possible. Any experiences with either?

[nicanor]

If you go one or the other, I've heard camber compesators are better from the two. Besides that I can't really help you much.

I want to improve my swing axle setup too, but I also want an airbag suspension.

Would you know if I use the airbag suspension, would I still be able to use a sway bar or camber compensator or the air bags will be good enough as is?

[bren]

swaybars will only work on an IRS rear end, camber compensators will only work on a swingaxle rear end. not vice versa. its not a choice dependant on the owners whim, its dependant on which rear end your car has. they both do a similar job, but in different ways and on different systems.

[74EMPI]

Hi Bren,
The reason I aksed this is because www.partsvw.com sells sway bars for swing axle cars.
http://store.cip1.com/Merchant2/merchan ... e=10-01-06

Take a look at it. Is this a misprint or can you actually use sway bar on swingaxle cars?

[bren]

oh! thats just the stock Z-bar.. it is a sort of swaybar, but uses complicated droplinks rather than being solidly mounted to the axles. a traditional swaybar wont work on swingaxles as the axles swing through an arc. has your bug not already got a z-bar fitted? my 73 had one from the factory. they dont work that well as you need to induce around 5-10degrees of body roll before it even starts to work. they can be modified to work fulltime, i ran mine like this for a couple of years, but even then a camber compensator works better as it prevents wheeltuck altogether.

[PEPPE]

On a swingaxle a sway bar can be used only for racing and with stiff rear torsion bars.
Causes a really excessive oversteer.
Good for a race car.
For fast road it is better a camber compensator that causes a better grip of rear end especially on non-flat surface and rapid weight trasfers. I felt one swing axle car fitted with a swaybar and also a buggy, but did not like that. PEPPE

[Moog]

We used an anti-roll bar (sway-bar) on our Beetle Cup racer (UK series) in 1992 - 1994. The rules meant it had to be swingaxle, so we used heavy duty Type3 torsion bars, lowered it, and used a proper anti-roll bar (not a Z-bar). We also had adjustable shocks, set good & stiff. The whole thing was really stiff, and would lap Brands Hatch faster than Golf GTI's with more power, and faster than the 924's with more power.

If it was raining we would disconnect the anti-roll bar, set the shocks on their softest, and drop the tyre pressures. Now that REALLY went sideways!!!

The team was "Team Hooj Slide"!!!

Came 4th in Championship in 1993, so it obviously worked.

[Michael Ghia]

On the race setup of the 356's I used to work on, we used a very stiff camber compensator, very stiff torsion bars and shocks. From what I could make out, the easiest way to make a swing axle bug handle on track was to minimise it's movement. If it could move, the camber change was awful!!
Mike Ghia

------------------
Modification is a form of Art.

[UKLuke72]

2 decade thread revival...
Interested in the comment about a sway bar not being possible on a Swing axle?
I have a 19mm sway bar up front on my BJ beam and a camber compensator at the back.
I have a 19mm rear sway bar to go on.
Is that a bad idea?

My thoughts are that the Camber compensator stops the outside wheel tucking, whilst the sway bar will compress the outer wheels suspension slightly thus limiting roll.

Bad idea?

Street car.
Full weight 72 beetle with a 2276

[Ol'fogasaurus]

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/wh ... way-bar-do

On a solid beam style of suspension, like the front of a ACVW has, the use is the same but the body is tied to the pan and solid beam instead of the sway bars pivot being on the frame/body like other vehicles do. The rear suspension of a ACVW isn't a solid axle but pivots at the trans. The torsion tube only works on axle loading (like a spring does) not transferring loading across the vehicle like a sway bar is supposed to do.

The camber compensator is there to limit the swing but doesn't transfer loads which a sway bar is supposed to do.

My question would be more like does everything work together or fight each other.

Lee

Update: I got curious on this so I did some other looking around. Most of the stuff I found said either/or but not both (this is not to say "NO"). I did find this discussion also where "Z bars" came into the discussion: https://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=122651

I used the title of your question as a search and got some different opinions most of them interesting.

Lee

[FJCamper]

Porsche used the camber compensator beginning on the 356B so it could soften the rear torsion bars and fight oversteer. This arangement worked great. The compensator spring added no roll resistance but did help support the weight. It also greatly helped to reduce rear wheel tuck.

Theoretically you should not use a sway bar on a swing axle because you are inceasing rear roll resistance. But I did it back in 1970 on my '68 Bug before I knew better and it worked for me, and it has for others as well. One of our Blitzwagen drivers has a rear sway bar on his '67 Bug right now and is happy with it.

I think a rear bar on a swingaxle might be risky for an average driver

[UKLuke72]

Due to oversteer?

[FJCamper]

Yes, or to be more precise, "snap oversteer" in which there is little to no warning. Porsche's compensator (actually officially the "compensating spring" with no reference to camber) allowed a softer rear torsion bar that increased rear roll and made the transisition to oversteer more gradual. A rear sway (anti-roll) bar significantly increases rear roll resistance. Theoretically, mixed with a swing axle, this is asking for trouble. I put 19mm front and rear sway bars on my 1968 Bug and felt that my overall handling was greatly improved, but I was okay with some oversteer and had fun inducing it to get dirt-track handling on curvey paved roads and leave the Detroit Iron in the dust.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

FJ, your replies pretty much answered my question of: "does everything work together or fight each other."

Since the camber compensator works on each side (if I remember correctly) individually and progressively limiting the suspension angles (compression and drop) while additional the torsion bar tries to tie in the body/pan in and takes some energy from each side and joins them together. The "snap oversteer" is something I didn't think of though.

Lee

[FJCamper]

EMPI gets the credit for taking the Porsche "compensating spring" and reinventing it as the camber compensator, one of the best advancements for the VW since the extractor exhaust.

A rear anti-roll bar really does fight the principal of the Porsche soft-rear torsion bars that reduced oversteer. The only reason I think a sway bar worked on my '68 was because of the very design of the bar I used. It mounted forward just under the torsion bar tubes, and the rearward-facing arms connected to the lower shock bolts, making them long and flexible. I believed the long arms fought to keep my axles level, giving me less true independent rear suspension, but trading off that flexibility for the predictabilty of a rear live axle.

We've probably exhausted this subject, but VW's use of the Z-bar which controlled camber without adding unwanted rear roll resistance, was swing axle genius.