3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

[rrb6699]

hey,
still working on getting materials together for painting and prep.

im using the Bug for errands almost daily. I just recently replaced the starter and it seemed to be working ok till an occasional click/no start. id keep trying and some how it would start.

now the horn never works unless I turn the wheel far enough to the right or left. tonite I had another no-start happen and turned the wheel to the left and it started. ive never taken a steering off this car so I need to do it looks like.

the 3 things it could be are a bad spot in the new starter, weak battery or something in the steering wheel. the starter switch is only a year old with moderate use.

so im looking at something affecting the horn. ill confirm it if it starts next time by turning the steering wheel. im going to try a new battery first.

lookin for steps to removing the steering wheel. I have a pic in one of my other posts ot intro but cant upload.

thanks,

[Marc]

You don't need a steering wheel puller, but the plastic retainer thingies for the `72-up center cover are fairly easy to break when they're old & brittle (new ones are still available if needed)...don't pry, bare hands are all that's needed to pull it straight off. Once you remove the cover, the retaining nut on the end of the column is visible. There's no "master" spline so the wheel can be put back on in any position - it's a good idea to center the wheel before you remove it. You may find that the brass bits that contact the commutator ring on the underside of the wheel are worn out (often they can be bent a little to restore their function)

But...before you go there, have a good look at the modular plugs on the underside of the column. If the terminals are corroded or have backed out of their plug body they may be making contact intermittently - could be that reefing on the wheel to full lock is tweaking the column just enough to "fix" the problem momentarily. Both the horn and starter problem could be due to poor contact in their modular plugs; a problem with the ignition switch itself isn't likely to be affected by the position of the wheel.

[rrb6699]

ok yea the cover on the steering wheel is loose but I didnt want to do anything to break it. ill try pulling it straight off and let you know what I find.

[SCOTTRODS]

Also... Take a damn *Sharpee* and make a mark the Spline and Sterring wheel for re-installation in the correct position... Easy and cheap way to get things right the first time... Some make permanent marks with a center punch to align with... but a Sharpee is likely a quick "NOW" item that can be very handy.

[rrb6699]

ok, there is a cover over the center of the steering wheel. the whole thing pushes to honk the horn. but on top of that is a cover that looks like just a cover. I tried to seperate it from the "body" but its extremely tight. some places seperate a little bit, others are very tight. now I dont know if there are tabs or how the thing is attached.

just being careful bcause I dont want to drive around with bare horn exposed if I break the snaps or fasteners. the places the cover seperates I can fit a flathead between but cannot run the flathead into the tight spots.

I cant get a good enough grio to pull anything. I can email a pic but the site wont let me upload pics and its probably an issue on my phone.

tia,

[Marc]

... I dont want to drive around with bare horn exposed if I break the snaps or fasteners..

So I'm assuming you've already ruled out a connection problem at the "modular" plugs on the underside of the column.
Worst-case, with the horn button/center cap thingie removed there'll just be one exposed wire - it could be used to "manually" sound the horn, or taped-over if you're worried about it going off on its own. The whole center cap comes off as an assembly, it's not intended to be taken apart...all that's holding it to the wheel are the aforementioned plastic "bushings" which may or may not survive its removal. There've been a few revisions in the style of these parts, but so far as I know they will all interchange. They tend to be a little spendy new (by the time you factor in typical exorbitant shipping charges), but many waterpumper VW/Audi models - and even some Porsches - use the same retaining system so you should be able to find some for cheap at the local Pick-n-Pull salvage yard.

Base part # is actually a Dasher number: 321 419 779

[rrb6699]

im not ruling out the 3 plugs under the steering column. im gonna mark and pull them all but the one with the larger starter related wires seems ok looking, but also looks like the plug was pushed on using the wires as a pad because they seem bent. the plug is not that hard to pull.

I still need to fix the horn if there are two seperate issues. but you last post is kinda cotrary to the first one on how to get to the horn wiring. I seem to have a day free to work on it today (12/6). I see allen screw that will let me slide the whole wheel off the shaft but not sure of that and if I can get a look at the horn wires by doing that.

I may opt to change steering wheel / horn setup if I find this to be too much of a pain just because I dont want to break something.

is there a explided diagram of this type of steering wheel somewhere. maybe that will help.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

http://chircoestore.com/tech_articles/?p=257

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=VW ... ORM=RESTAB

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=VW ... ORM=IRIBEP

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=19 ... &FORM=IGRE

A lot of redundant stuff but the last one does show something on the horn outside of the column connection. I hope there is something in there that might help you.

[rrb6699]

thanks, looks like the above is going to be for fixing the horn. I have pretty much determined its the ignition switch. but I do have other stuff to check connection-wise in the column itself (bright/dim switch, horn)

However, when I pull the key out the cylinder follows and clicks. when I push the key in the cylinder travels in and clicks. I can turn the key sometimes and it starts, others it doesnt. regardless of steering wheel position. I'll look at the links in the previous post and see what I can get out of them.
I still cannot find where it says how to remove the plastic without breaking it. thats the 1st step that's missing from all these instructions. all its says usually is to just remove the cap which sounds like a different horn cover than mine. in fact, none of those steering wheels look like mine except this one which is what mine looks like:

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M62b ... =2&pid=1.1

[Marc]

..I can turn the key sometimes and it starts, others it doesnt. regardless of steering wheel position...

At this distance, one could easily believe that you are describing the normal action of the "non-repeat" mechanism that's designed into VW ignition switches to keep you from inadvertently engaging the starter with the engine running...it won't go to the "crank" position twice in a row - you must turn the ignition "off" to rearm it.

...I see allen screw that will let me slide the whole wheel off the shaft...

Ummm...no. The allen screw secures the upper switch housing to the tubular part of the steering column, and is not normally touched unless necessary to move the housing up or down to set its clearance to the underside of the wheel. To remove the wheel, you must take off the big nut which secures it to the shaft.

[rrb6699]

yea, I did catch that so I took the key all the way out each time I tried to start it. still got a no start 8 out of 9 times. I think its the ignition switch at the moment.

I finally figured out the steering wheel and didnt break anything... I took the ignition cylinder out but wasnt sure about taking that apart. id rather get a new one first before I totally break this one.

I sprayed everything with contact cleaner, wirebrushed all the connectors and glued the wiper plug because it looked like one of those wires wasnt plugged into its plug and there was no plastic "snap cap" on it so all those wires were just laying in the bottom half of the plug connector.

I use Goop plumbing glue because it hardens but remains flexible (maybe 15%) if you havent used this glue, I recommend it highly.

well, I put everything back together and same thing. So, just as a stop-gap measure till I get another ignition switch to try, I want to wire up a pushbutton to start it. At least I wont get stuck that way and wont have to figure out how to start it away from home. I'm looking at this diagram here.
http://www.netlink.net/mp/volks/schem/ign_plug.gif

if I do a pushbutton starter, I would just need to hook the connector #30 (batt) to connector #50 (starter) or would I hook #30 to #15(ignition)?

tia,

[Marc]

30 = power supply from battery ("hot" at all times)
50 = control power to starter solenoid (ignition switch passes power to 50 only when in the crank position)
15 = power to the ignition coil and various accessory loads ("hot" any time the ignition switch isn't in off position)

Only 30 and 50 would be needed at an auxiliary start switch You'd still use the stock key-switch to unlock/lock the wheel and turn on/off the ignition. In the case of `71-up cars which have the "X" terminal, the ignition switch also provides power to the headlamp portion of the lighting switch when in the "on" position.

You're still getting way ahead of things, though, as you haven't isolated the problem yet. The ignition switch is one possibility, but so is high resistance at one or more of several connections in the current path from battery to solenoid. Intermittent problems are particularly difficult to diagnose (especially at a distance), and can be caused by the aggregate effects of multiple "borderline" conditions - for example, if the starter solenoid requires just slightly more than normal current applied in order to function and/or the battery or its connections are sub-par, the "normal" contact resistance inside the ignition switch may be just enough to prevent the starter from operating. If the starter works reliably when energized through an alternate switch, it doesn't conclusively prove that the stock ignition switch is the problem, since just a little more power to the solenoid may be enough to overcome some other issue(s).

One popular solution is to add a small relay back near the battery/starter to pass power to the solenoid via "short & sweet" wiring - so configured, all that the stock ignition switch and its related wiring have to provide is enough power to energize the relay (much less than it takes to operate the solenoid). This "Band-Aid" approach doesn't actually fix anything, but it does make the car start reliably - so long as the relay works - and is a more respectable way to go than just grafting in a pushbutton.

You can use a "Ford" starter solenoid for this purpose, but they draw more current than a "horn relay" and the latter does the job just as well. You can purchase a ready-made kit or roll your own using a generic relay (I'd use one rated for 30A or more):
...

There's one more troubleshooting step to do before installing a relay, though. The column-mounted VW ignition switches are known for having the plastic which locates the contacts either crack or melt so that the contacts become misaligned or recessed - if that's the case, the switch must be replaced (or the funky pushbutton cure employed). Observe the two warning lights on the dash closely as you turn the key - if they don't dim at all when you go to the crank position, the switch (or its connections) is almost certainly the culprit. If they do dim a bit, that shows that the switch is at least trying to work and you've got a good candidate for a booster relay.

[rrb6699]

the gen lights (on speedometer and above the radio) both shine brightly. when I turn the key I either get a click, nothing or it starts. in all cases the lights shine brightly.

maybe just to eliminate wiring or starter (new starter) should hook up the "30/50" switch and do it as a test. of course I turn the key on but wont crank it.

ill test the battery too, but, it starts fine when it works. just want to be sure its fine.

[Marc]

the gen lights (on speedometer and above the radio) both shine brightly. when I turn the key I either get a click, nothing or it starts. in all cases the lights shine brightly...

The "dimming" I referred to can be extremely subtle, something one might not observe except in dim ambient light - but if you're getting an audible "click" when you turn the key to the crank position that would indicate that some power is being delivered to the solenoid (therefore you can conclude that the switch is functioning), just not enough to make it "pull in" => a booster relay should be effective.

The carburetor has a small solenoid on its idle cut-off jet which receives power from Term 15 of the ignition coil; that will make a light clicking noise when the key is moved between the ignition-on and ignition-off positions...don't confuse that sound with the somewhat-deeper noise that the starter solenoid will make when it's trying to work (you can temporarily unplug the small wire from the cut-off jet while listening - just ensure that it isn't touching anything so you can't melt the wiring).

If you feel that you must wire in an auxiliary "start" button, an ideal place to do this is between the battery's positive post and the inline connection to the solenoid wire under the back seat...the button could be placed where you can reach it with your right hand from the driver's seat. http://www.speedyjim.net/schem/starter_jumper.gif

[rrb6699]

ok,
I was out today with the intention of setting up a hotwire to start the Bug and was checking connectors and wires one last time. I jiggled the headlight switch because I was making sure those wires were ok and it started.

then it wouldnt start again after 2 successful starts. I checked all the wires as far as I could but they all are hard to follow where the harnesses cross.

anyway I decided to just keep turning the key and, hey, it starts again. the starter works fine when it does start and it starts right up.

I think its the ignition key switch more and more. I still may wire up an "emergency" hotwire switch under the back seat just in case.

ill entertain any ideas still but, I think replacing ignition switch maybe is necessary anyway. after running it for about 5 minutes, I shut it off and no start, no click and the Generator lights come on bright and have no dim or even flicker when turning the key.

this ignition switch is not that old. if this is the problem, does anyone make a better version of these switches or should I just order one every 6 months?