MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

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Max Welton
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by Max Welton »

Piledriver wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:36 pm The intake port temp really determines how well th fuel/air mix and raw fuel fallout/wall wetting esp at lower rpms, I often considered trying to put the clt sensor in the intake port wall.(may yet)
In my initial attempt I used a closed-element GM style temp sensor tapped into the left head valve gallery. It worked but I couldn't keep it from leaking.

Max
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Piledriver
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by Piledriver »

I was thinking more along the lines of a setup more like marios ptc-embedded-in-a-copper-lug with jbweld, attached with a screw tapped into the port wall.
They also make teensy ones in a small bolt format you could screw directly into a tapped hole..

The open element ptc resistor units don't hold up particulary well to rough environments, aIlthough I did get years of service out of a real gm one a few mm from an exhaust stub, literally ziptied to a pushrod tube, in the airflow around the ex port...(type4, have to use different location on t1)

The issue on the open element units (low mass/direct sensor exposure) highly useful for very fast response, as well as not just measuring manifold or block temperature...) is the supporting epoxy needs to be filled up just past the solder joints, and they can't apparently manufacture them like that, you have to do the backfill manually with a drop or 2 of jbweld while trying not to create a thermal short too close to the sensor, while supporting the legs and solder joints.
You don't want to use 5 min epoxy if its going to see 350-400f, it will probably dust sooner than later

If you make one, you want to use teensy crimps, or ideally spot welds, worst case use lead free solder as it has a much higher melting point than typical sn63 used for most hobby and solder repair work. Lead free solder is essentially pure tin.
A radio shack special soldering iron might never get hot enough to work well on sn100...
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Max Welton
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by Max Welton »

Yeah, lotta work if all you need is something to base WUE on.

For my type-3 I wound up with a closed element sensor positioned right behind the thermostat. In practice it reads in the range of oil temp but reacts quicker. I was worried about an open element sensor getting contaminated in that location.

Mario's solution looks very tidy and I will probably go with that on my type-1 engine.

Max
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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by kangaboy »

Finally got to go to the track at the beginning of the month to put down a baseline time to give me something to beat next year...whoa boy is my car a lot slower than I thought. My best no launch, 8psi, 1776cc, full bodied bug with a roof rack run was 17.2 :lol: Painful
But like I said, just wanted to get a baseline time to beat next year. It was my first time ever on a drag strip too, so I'm sure there was some significant time loss with the lack of any experience. Plus, I drove it there and knew I had to make the drive back home.

Image

Image

Now for the bad...the motor actually died on me when I stopped at a stop sign on the way home (which it did at the beginning of this driving season as well). I was able to crank it back over and drive the rest of the way home, but it always stuttered and coughed when starting from a stop. And before that, it was just surging or lean spiking for the majority of the ride home on the highway. Its the same problem that I have been dealing with all year, and it just keeps showing its ugly head.
This time was a little different. I don't know if it had any significance, or was just what seemed like a frequency, but it seemed to do a really hard lean spike/surge every 15 seconds. I would just keep my foot on the gas, it would work its self out in a couple seconds, and then it went back to normal...until about 15 seconds later it would do the same thing. Needless to say, it was a long drive home.
I have gone through my tune many times, and all looks normal besides the spike in AFR. Fuel pressure, pulse width, spark timing, etc. all look stable. It just seems to drop out every so often and lean out. It idles fine and looks good when in boost and full throttle. Just has trouble cruising.
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Chip Birks
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by Chip Birks »

Sounds like it could be an ego correction cycle. How much authority does that system have? Might be worth disabling it completely for a drive to see it that fixes the 15 second loop.
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panel
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by panel »

Gotta have a log going when it stalls on ya. Then we/you can have a look etc.
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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by kangaboy »

Chip Birks wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:54 am Sounds like it could be an ego correction cycle. How much authority does that system have? Might be worth disabling it completely for a drive to see it that fixes the 15 second loop.
Per previous suggestions, I think I have EGO correction turned off. I will double check though. As far as the log, I will get the bug out this weekend and get one. I have a couple previous ones, and I have gone over them pretty will with no glaring issues, but it would be worth it to have others take a look at it.
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Piledriver
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by Piledriver »

You can turn logging on with a meatspace switch... no software required, other than to read it back out.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by kangaboy »

Piledriver wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:20 pm You can turn logging on with a meatspace switch..
You're really going to have to be more clear on that one my friend. Neither myself nor google knows what that means.... :oops:
'74 Standard- 2084T, MS3X3
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Piledriver
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by Piledriver »

Google knows all, you simply must ask the question correctly... :twisted:
https://www.google.com/search?channel=f ... ce+meaning

Meatspace== real world, physical reality, not online, vr or software.

You can trigger logging many ways. an actual physical switch is one of them.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
madmike
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by madmike »

Luv your attitude :lol:
next year take off the roof rack :wink:
remove spare tire/passenger seat,back seat and any other stuff like jacks etc.
remember ounces add up to 'pounds' and every little bit helps, I bet you'd be lowering that time by a full second or two?:lol:
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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by kangaboy »

Wow, been quite a while since I updated this thread. Since the 2084cc motor is done and in use (link in sig), time to get back here and start updating the build.
I have so many updates I don't really even know where to start...I guess the most recent update would have been the new fuel system. The new motor has been run exclusively on E85, so all parts are purchased with that in mind. That might change as I continue to drive it and ultimately get it back to daily driver status in the warmer months, but currently, it’s just a racecar. Back story: As I was getting a few pulls on the new motor the other week, I noticed that it would rev up a bit and before I would ever get to the max RPM range, it would just start cutting out. Went home, pulled up the logs, and noticed my full pressure was going down down down every time I went into boost. I was Autotuning at the time, and the VE table was getting bigger and bigger, trying to dump more and more fuel into the system to hit my AFR targets. Needless to say, it eventually went lean and hit my AFR safety stop, hence the cutting out in the upper RPM range. My injector duty cycle was something dumb like 98%, and I just thought there was no way the 82lbs injectors weren't able to keep up...looking further at the log, my fuel pressure went down to something like 24psi. Yikes. The next day I tested the FPR with a bike pump and ran a log. I put 20psi of air on the regulator and sure enough the pressure rose from ~40psi (motor off, pump on) to ~60psi. So the fuel pressure regulator was functioning appropriately (1:1 rate as advertised), so that means my pump or filter was acting up. So time to replace those and redo my fuel routing a little bit. Previously I had the filter before the pump. Per a couple articles I read, pumps are better at pushing fuel, and not pulling it, so that logically made me think the pump should be pushing fuel through the filter, and not sucking it through. Anyway, I got a new Bosch 200 (which now supersedes the ever popular 044), and a new 10 micron SS fuel filter pre injectors to be used for the E85 I am running. This new set up replaced my Airtex amazon pump (was good for me until it wasn’t), and some off the shelf filter from Autozone (again, it worked until it didn’t). Being the procrastinator that I am, the new parts were delivered just a couple days before the most recent drag race day. So I was left with a few days to find the appropriate fittings and hoses required to plumb it all up. It was a mad scramble the day before the races to get all the fittings and hose fitted, fix a single leak, and then get a few minutes of tuning in before I had to put the Beetle on the trailer for the races the next day. Jim came through big for me as usual, and hooked me up with the banjo fitting that goes on the 044/200 pump feed side, and also tap the propriety weird ass adapter fitting that goes on the inlet side to allow me use of an NTP 1/8 fitting.
With the new system in place, Dad played co-pilot and manned the laptop while we did some quick autotuning and got a couple pulls to see if the new pump and filter did the trick. Sure enough they did, and fuel pressure was rising accordingly with boost…but I couldn’t quite tune the top end because my AFR safety system was kicking in again, but this time because the AFR was pig rich running on the table with huge VE values. Oh well…I’ll fix it at the track.
Next morning, got to the track, unloaded it and got the first run in. Ran a 15.69 @ 95mph, autotune set on “Easy”. Still hit a safety system, and I thought it was the AFR safety, but it wasn’t till my 4th run of the day that I found out I had a Boost cut off on at 225KPA. Silly me. Either way, my goal of every race day (this was my third event) has always been to “do better than last time”. So needless to say, cutting off almost 2 seconds from my run with the 1776T a year prior was better…goal met.
Now it was time to figure out a little more with this new motor, and see if I could actually improve my runs from the previous 30 or so minutes of total tuning that I had done. Like I mentioned, the VE table that I ran for some of the day were super fat, and as I tried to lean it out from 9:1 all the way to 11.5:1, it ran fastest at the ~10.8:1 tune. With this tune, I ran a 14.1 @100 mph, which has been my best run to date (I’m VW66 in the pic below). Post race day, I have come to find out after hours of reading recently that E85 is a completely different beast, and I think it has much more to give me. I’m not going to go into too much detail until I have had some time to get some miles on the car and test my new theories, but I plan to tune the entire boost areas a little richer (10.8:1), and with a little more progressive timing further into RPM (low 30’s or until it doesn’t give me diminishing returns).
Image

All of this information has to be precursored with the fact that I wasn’t using any launch control, and I was pretty much rolling off the line so I didn’t bust up my stock transaxle. Once I get my two-step sorted and can consistently launch at the same RPM, I will be able to compare my timing and VE tunes to one another.
So with all that said, it was a fantastic race day, nothing broke, and I met my goal of doing better than last time (by 3 seconds!). I know I have a TON of work to do to get this car in line, and upgrading the transaxle is pretty much holding the motor back from hitting much lower than a 13 second run. All in due time though. New motor is awesome, and I’m having a pretty good time messing around with it. Cant wait till September for the next drag day!
Image

FYI, Green bug in the picture there ran 10.5’s all day. Gonna be a little bit before I can catch up to him.
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'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet
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Schweg
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by Schweg »

That’s some awesome progress!! Congrats on dropping time off!

How was the track? Also why September till the next race?
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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by kangaboy »

Track was great!! It was the busiest I have ever seen it since going there in 2020. Lots of racers and drifters there. I could stand on the fence and watch the drift folks go all day...it's mesmerizing. As far as waiting till September, I have been going to the event called Import Face Off, and that is the next one scheduled. If I can get a transaxle built up before then I would love to go to a test and tune session that they have regularly. I have my doubts about the transaxle part though, cause I just have no clue where to even start.
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'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet
My Megasquirt Turbo Build
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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

Post by kangaboy »

I forgot to post the video Jim made for the day!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZsxI1uLImk
'74 Standard- 2084T, MS3X3
'76 Westy- Stock 2.0L L-Jet
My Megasquirt Turbo Build
2084 Turbo Build
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