Holley Red intermittent problems

[tattooed_pariah]

Short version: brand new holley red pump randomly decides it needs to take a nap and stop working..

Long version with all the info: Brand new Holley Red with MAYBE 50 miles on it. Fuel flows from tank, through about 6 inches of AN line to an Earl's filter (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-2 ... /overview/), then through about 8 inches to the Holley Red, which is directly connected to a Petrol King Regulator (http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Fuel-Press ... ulator.htm), through the heater tunnel to a bulkhead fitting on the rear firewall and to dual Weber 40IDFs from there.. The pump is below the tank in front of the passengers feet.

It's wired to a standard relay with a 25amp fuse inline. an on/off toggle switch turns on power to the relay.

i drove it probably about 25 miles Tuesday.. maybe 15 of that around 330pm, then a couple miles around 6pm, then the rest at about 1130pm.. It ran GREAT, no problems at all..

Wednesday morning I try to drive to work at 545am, I make it about 5 miles when suddenly the pump cuts off and the engine starves.. i coast to the shoulder. Touch the pump, it's cool to the touch, not even really warm. lift the hood and check all the wires, nothing looks physically damaged, fuses are all good. Hop back in, hit the switch again and it runs again.. Drive another mile or so and it shuts off. pull over, repeat, suddenly it works again. Another mile or so and it's off again.. I finally made it to work, but I could only go about a mile to a mile and a half each time..

We had a mandatory team builder, so I left work at about 12, it ran fine all the way home, not a single problem with the pump, nothing, it was like it never had any problem..

I have no idea where to begin looking. If the problem persisted in the afternoon I would probably rebuild the pump, but it works fine now (I haven't tried running it at 5am again yet..).

Any ideas?

[tattooed_pariah]

drove it today after work about 12 miles (should have been about 8 but I kept jumping down side streets to try and avoid rush hour traffic..) no problems. Got what I needed from the store and headed for home.. about a quarter of the way home I turned on my headlights thinking maybe the alternator just couldn't keep up with the power requirement. So with the headlights on, I was giving it throttle and zooming around trying to draw as much power as I could and still nothing, it ran like a champ..

I guess the only way I'm going to be able to test this is to try and drive it to work against.. :/ see if it is cold related, which still doesn't make any sense to me.. I'm in Southern California, it's not like it's icing up or anything..

[Clonebug]

I would check all the connections carefully to start with.

I know some people say it's not right but I crimp, solder and heat shrink every connection on my buggy and I have never had a wire related issue.

[tattooed_pariah]

I would check all the connections carefully to start with.

I know some people say it's not right but I crimp, solder and heat shrink every connection on my buggy and I have never had a wire related issue.

yeah i crimp and heat shrink everything, they're all solid..

[Fiatdude]

could be an ignition switch issue ---- when you can, attach a wire to the positive side of the pump and run it to a small temporary light (led) that you can dangle somewhere and drive it until it fails again -- if the light is on when the pump is off --- blah blah blah you can figure it from here

[tattooed_pariah]

could be an ignition switch issue ---- when you can, attach a wire to the positive side of the pump and run it to a small temporary light (led) that you can dangle somewhere and drive it until it fails again -- if the light is on when the pump is off --- blah blah blah you can figure it from here

I had an idea of putting two one foot strips of red LEDs under the dash and attaching them to the same switch as the pump.. Kind of like a visual warning that I forgot to turn the pump off just in case i go completely deaf and don't hear it running

Maybe I'll throw them in as diagnostic lights then..

[Fiatdude]

I would pick up the power for the lights at the pump -- this would help diagnose any wiring issues too

[tattooed_pariah]

that's what I meant.. have the power feed coming out of the relay (that currently goes directly to the pump) also feed the led strips..

[Dale M.]

I would pick up the power for the lights at the pump -- this would help diagnose any wiring issues too

Ditto..... Use "double" connectors on end of lamp and connect directly to pump terminals....



Light on, pump not running, bad pump.... Light off, bad electrical somewhere between battery and pump..... Even best quality workmanship can fall victim to poor quality connection, and lots of time everything looks good, but there are so many cheap quality electrical connectors out there (specially "push on") they make life miserable....

Dale

[tattooed_pariah]

I got my male and female sliders from here: http://tiewraps.com/femalesliders3mnylon.html

I really wanted the 3M ones with the dielectric grease crap in them that hardens up to weatherproof em, but I couldn't find a good enough deal on those..

Been a shitty week and I'm exhausted, but if I have the energy after work today I'll wire up those lights..

[tattooed_pariah]

ok, so tonight I ran down to Radio Shack.. bought a fuse block with four spots, four 20amp fuses, and some connectors/splitters..

I took the power lead from the relay (the wire that has power when the relay has power..) connected it to the new fuse block (there is a fuse between the stock fuseblock and the relay..), connected the fuel pump, two strings of red LEDs and a power outlet (cigarette lighter style) to the new power source.. turn on the switch and everything works fine. So now if my pump dies again while driving and the lights and power point stay powered, then the pump is bad, if everything dies, wiring is bad..

I've been driving it in the evening the last two days and no problems so far.. probably try to drive to work again sometime next week..

[Piledriver]

Have you ever rebuilt (or disassembled) a Holley Red pump?
(IIRC Blues are a similar design)

They are apparently frequently called "single season" pumps.
(As in a single drag racing season)

I bought one to use as a lift pump before I knew the details awhile back, took it apart to see how it went together.
At least it's easy to see how it is assembled (... and where it will leak, and how short the tiny carbon brushes are...)
Admittedly I am biased from doing post mortems on dead Bosch EFI pumps (usually 30+ years old) which are much heavier duty units designed for OEM use at higher pressures/flows. (Bosch roller cell pumps are flow rated at 90 PSI)


Take a dead Bosch pump apart sometime and compare... (there is no comparison)
Even VDO lift pumps are HD beasts compared to a Holley red, from a design standpoint (fuel cooled and lubricated)
Newer pumps aren't even easily serviced (riveted in brushes) and when the shaft seal springs a leak, throw it away, the teflon oring isn't part of the rebuild kit.
(although the determined could probably find one, it probably died from a rusted shaft)
The Bosch (and most other) pumps don't require shaft seals as they have submerged motors, thus no way to leak.
The Holley Red is also a 4 PSI pump, and is likely to overflow Webers or Dells reliably unless used with a separate regulator.

If they get the smallest amount of water in the sliding vane gap and rust, they will cease to work as the vanes must slide in/out from centrifugal force alone for the pump to function. This could come and go...
\
A fuel pump that is designed so it will eventually leak gasoline is damage waiting to be installed.
(rotating shaft seals to external world will eventually fail)

I keep mine on the shelf of shame as a reminder to research purchases better.

[tattooed_pariah]

Have you ever rebuilt (or disassembled) a Holley Red pump?
(IIRC Blues are a similar design)

no, this is my first one.. I bought it last summer and it's had about 60 miles total put on it to date..

They are apparently frequently called "single season" pumps.
(As in a single drag racing season)

Drag racing in inherently hard on ALL parts, not just pumps.. that's why someone with a true built drag engine will split the case after every 3rd or 4th race day...

I bought one to use as a lift pump before I knew the details awhile back, took it apart to see how it went together.
At least it's easy to see how it is assembled (... and where it will leak, and how short the tiny carbon brushes are...)
Admittedly I am biased from doing post mortems on dead Bosch EFI pumps (usually 30+ years old) which are much heavier duty units designed for OEM use at higher pressures/flows. (Bosch roller cell pumps are flow rated at 90 PSI)

To the best of my very limited knowledge, Holley Reds were not designed to be lift pumps, so you bought one to use incorrectly and it performed poorly... ok, noted..

Take a dead Bosch pump apart sometime and compare... (there is no comparison)

I have neither the finances, nor inclination to buy something purely for cpmarison purposes, I'm moving from California to Virginia in a couple of months and just trying ot get everything running correctly before the move..

Even VDO lift pumps are HD beasts compared to a Holley red, from a design standpoint (fuel cooled and lubricated)
Newer pumps aren't even easily serviced (riveted in brushes) and when the shaft seal springs a leak, throw it away, the teflon oring isn't part of the rebuild kit.
(although the determined could probably find one, it probably died from a rusted shaft)
The Bosch (and most other) pumps don't require shaft seals as they have submerged motors, thus no way to leak.

Good info! thanks!

The Holley Red is also a 4 PSI pump, and is likely to overflow Webers or Dells reliably unless used with a separate regulator.

Fuel flows from tank, through about 6 inches of AN line to an Earl's filter (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-2 ... /overview/), then through about 8 inches to the Holley Red, which is directly connected to a Petrol King Regulator (http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Fuel-Press ... ulator.htm), through the heater tunnel to a bulkhead fitting on the rear firewall and to dual Weber 40IDFs from there.. The pump is below the tank in front of the passengers feet.

That's from the first post of this thread..

If they get the smallest amount of water in the sliding vane gap and rust, they will cease to work as the vanes must slide in/out from centrifugal force alone for the pump to function. This could come and go...

Cool, another useful piece of information! this could be what happened, the day it had problems was maybe the 2nd or third day it had ran in probably 4 or 5 months.. maybe something had built up on the vanes and it's running well now because whatever it is passed..

A fuel pump that is designed so it will eventually leak gasoline is damage waiting to be installed.
(rotating shaft seals to external world will eventually fail)

I keep mine on the shelf of shame as a reminder to research purchases better.

noted. I know some of this may seem like sarcastic smart assed responses, it's not my intention to offend, i really do appreciate the information..

I'm trying to drive it more often as I feel more comfortable with it's ability to get me home so far I haven't had it die on me since the day this post started with.. so I guess it's just a matter of "wait and see" now :/

[Dale M.]

Is the LED for monitoring pump power connect right to pump terminals... You description of "new" wiring was not quite clear....

Dale

[Steve Arndt]

They are super simple to take apart and inspect. A 5/16 (maybe 1/4) nut driver is all you need to remove the botton plate.