2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

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carsten bb
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by carsten bb »

Wally wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:09 am Replaced the 7 psi wastegate spring with a 1.0 bar spring last weekend, but mixed up spring colors from different charts (before and after 2012 Tial changed color coding...) so a 1,12 bar spring set was the result I found out :shock:
Bl**dy h*ll! Never driven with this power on the road. Its mind boggling what happens and although the car seemed stable, small imperfections in the road make the wheels spin for a very brief moment. Its a brutal experience. Pure mathematically 1,12 bar should be about 470hp..
Frankly its weird that so much force stays in one piece.

Dyno coming friday afternoon, so wish me luck..
Its time for 3 bar!
If you have the turbine for it. Watch your back pressure.
Good luck Walter !

C
bug66
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by bug66 »

Nice! You clearly did not mix up the colours enough :mrgreen:

1,5 bar spring and 1,5 on top of the WG 8)


Any results yet?
---

2165cc on a Borg Warner S257 SXE, DTA S60 on E85.

Boost was created only to make people smile, and make power! 8)

10.626 @ 132mph SCC2016
10.407 @ 134mph SCC2017
10.221 @ 135mph SCC2018
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Wally
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Wally »

Although 483hp and not blowing up is anything from a bad result, I was pretty disappointed at how little gain the turbo gave and how long it took to spool. My expectation was that it should do 500 at about 1,3-1,4 bar, but even 1,8 bar didn't do it.

In hindside, my timing was still set for the flat pistons on the smaller 98mm bore and proved VERY conservative for the current 102mm and dished pistons. At least that's my provisonal conclusion..

Image

T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
Eddie010
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Eddie010 »

I can only dream off those figures. :shock:
Nice result and big respect.

You have nock sensor right, so what you said maybe a bit to gain with the ignition.
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richie,uk
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by richie,uk »

Wally wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:33 am Although 483hp and not blowing up is anything from a bad result, I was pretty disappointed at how little gain the turbo gave and how long it took to spool. My expectation was that it should do 500 at about 1,3-1,4 bar, but even 1,8 bar didn't do it.

In hindside, my timing was still set for the flat pistons on the smaller 98mm bore and proved VERY conservative for the current 102mm and dished pistons. At least that's my provisonal conclusion..

Image

Hey Walter

any day it comes off dyno in one piece is a good day :mrgreen: Any chance you have intake or exhaust/wastegate leaks to slow spooling down? what afr are you aiming for under boost? and how little timing?
Even though you didn't achieve your 500hp goal yet[ and i know you will not just accept it & will keep trying 8) ] thats going to be pretty insane on the road, my 1303 has maybe 350hp and its virtually undrivable with full throttle most of time and only 1.2bar boost!! so yours will be crazy[ in a good way :lol: ]

cheers Richie
Clonebug
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Clonebug »

Is DIN hp crank hp or wheel hp?????
Either way it's pretty impressive at only 6000 rpm!!!!
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
carsten bb
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by carsten bb »

What was the numbers at lower boost? Did It respond correct to more boost?
Good number, but something seems a little off.
Boost leak?
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Wally
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Wally »

Thanks Richie,
Its a blast under boost indeed :-) and I am getting more and more used to it :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I just reread the ignition map and it was 2 - 3 full degrees behind with what I think it probably 'needs'. It was now at 24-26 without correction, which was a setting which seemed optimal for twin-spark at the 98mm bore with the bit more CR and flat pistons. Probably not so much with this engine with pretty low dynamic compression...so I reset at 27-28 degrees for now.
I also dialed down the boost corrections a bit.
My target AFR under boost is 11,5.

Good point Eddie: I do have a knock sensor system, but for twin-spark it was not designed... so I contacted John from Safe Guard who made the system and he gave me some pointers how to modify the system. I didn;t understand it, but fortunaltely Robin did and he soldered the needed new connections in. At first I couldn't get it to do anything... Even on max sensitivity it didn't flash (did before at idle), so I thought it didn;t work and disconnected the unit. The above dyno was therefore without any safeguard.
Due to my extremely safe settings, it also never triggered I suppose.

Only just an hour ago when I tested again with the much less safe settings, it triggered at low RPM (3500) when boost came in early in fouth, so it finally works! Yeah! That also gives me the trust I can tune it more to the limit.
Back home I noticed some fields down low needed 13% more fuel... :shock: so there's probably the extra power I was missing, but its a little early to tell yet as I have not run the whole map at WOT yet.

Clone (forgot your real name,,): The power curve is flywheel corrected. Its a 'heartbreaker' dyno though, compared to some (most) others I have been on ;-)

Not sure Carsten, that might need a little more time to check (boost leak). Seems tight, but I agree, could be the culprit for the curve. On the road it doesn't seem slow spooling at all though. At wastegate I was missing already 25% or so behind the 1:1 boost-power increase ratio, so I also knew something was off. Sure now it was at least timing, but could be another thing as well. With boost increase, the gain was very lineair, so it responded well and as expected to boost increases. Up to 1,6 bar, the boost stayed very stable at high RPM. Only the shown 1,8 bar decreased to 1,7 at max RPM.
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
Clonebug
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Clonebug »

Wally wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:31 am Clone (forgot your real name,,): The power curve is flywheel corrected. Its a 'heartbreaker' dyno though, compared to some (most) others I have been on ;-)
If I put your numbers into my Favorite Boost/Airflow Calculator your numbers are almost right on for the engine size.....rpm and boost.

483 cr. hp with 148 cubic inches and 6000 rpm at 11.5 afr and 100* IAT's takes 26.37 lbs. boost.
I bumped the Volumetric Efficiency to 1.0 from the default of .95 due to your nice heads and it is almost spot on numbers wise.

https://rbracing-rsr.com/calcboost.html

I've used this to compare other engines and it is quite accurate to what the numbers are listed at.
There are a couple that are off but most are pretty close.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
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buguy
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by buguy »

I like how your car barely squats at all, even with the big power. At least on the dyno!
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Wally
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Wally »

Clonebug wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:11 pm
Wally wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:31 am Clone (forgot your real name,,): The power curve is flywheel corrected. Its a 'heartbreaker' dyno though, compared to some (most) others I have been on ;-)
If I put your numbers into my Favorite Boost/Airflow Calculator your numbers are almost right on for the engine size.....rpm and boost.

483 cr. hp with 148 cubic inches and 6000 rpm at 11.5 afr and 100* IAT's takes 26.37 lbs. boost.
I bumped the Volumetric Efficiency to 1.0 from the default of .95 due to your nice heads and it is almost spot on numbers wise.

https://rbracing-rsr.com/calcboost.html

I've used this to compare other engines and it is quite accurate to what the numbers are listed at.
There are a couple that are off but most are pretty close.
I think its off and not because the formula doesn't work, but because my tuning is "off".
Max RPM should be about 7000 (N/A dyno number peaked there) and intake air temp was more like 75F (20-25 degree C).
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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rubenski
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by rubenski »

Verry impressive results.

I know how my 222hp buggy performes on the road.

I wouldnt know how double that would be controllable....

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brewsy
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by brewsy »

Awesome Wally.
What's really crazy though is that you're making somewhere between 150-220 HP just over 2000rpm!!!
When you get the tune dialled in that might be even better which means whilst you can rev this motor you won't necessarily need to!!!

Hats off to you brother!
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Wally
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Wally »

Well, I found the weak link in the build :lol:
This happened at a local test 'n tune dragrace venue at around 1,5 bar with highly fluctuating boost.. now I know why. 1/4 mi end speed was still 198 km/h with this happening at that run.

Apperently one of the barrels had been clearenced just a tad too much and/or I must have experienced a case of high speed knock...
Image

Image
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Wally
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Re: 2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

Post by Wally »

To overcome this quickly and with a lot of help from 'Bluethunder' over here, I ordered a single new Deutz cylinder and we attacked that with an angle grinder, lathe and lots of burring:

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Left the new machined cylinder:
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And reinstalled on the engine with the old piston rings (quick 'n dirty so I can hopefully run again this season still)
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After 100 or so miles, the compression was back up to exactly the same value as before :mrgreen:

Unfortunatly I now ran into ignition issues (again, misfires under WOT) but the engine seems mechanically very sound again :)
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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