Another MS2 bug

[veloracer]

Hey everyone,

Been a long time member just not a big poster but read a ton. I've been working on my build for a long time - work, family, more work tend to consume my time more and more. However, I've been able to dedicate time to the build over the last few weeks and I have finally bridged the gap and have successfully fired and kept and idle on the bug. Still learning a ton and working out the kinks but man, it's been a long time coming and I am grinning from ear to ear.

specs:
2276cc
DRD L6 heads
SLR XR 302 cam
CB TB



An issues that I can't seem to figure out. My LC-1 isn't reading correctly. I've calibrated using the Innovative procedure as well as through TS. I've done the calibration through TS and every time I go to the EGO dropdown it does not contain a value. I set it to Innovative LC-1 Default every time. I expect it to show when I go to the Calibrate AFR Table but it's blank. Is it just not sticking? Thanks again to everyone before me who had issues and the many experts and all input from everyone, that's how I was able to avoid common mistakes. Onward!

TonyG

[veloracer]

found my answer to the AFR from the manual

"MegaTune doesn't save the value of the menu selection you used for the AFR calibration, and neither does the MegaSquirt® controller. Instead, the actual table values are burnt (and the controller remembers them even if the power is shut down). So you select the AFR you want to burn and then burn it (allow time for it to complete writing the 1024 entries). You should get the right AFR readings.

Next time you go into the AFR calibration menu, the AFR selection you used last time is NOT highlighted (because neither MegaTune nor the MegaSquirt® controller store this value), however the AFR table is still in place and should give the correct readings"

[56speedster]

Nice work Tony!

[veloracer]

Thanks speedster.

I am looking for some input if someone would care to. I have been reading and applying what I've been reading although I am not quite understanding everything. I've been doing updates to VE, AFR and Spark and I believe I'm getting closer albeit a bit crude on the maps. One thing I cannot figure out is why my AFR reads so fat. I think I've gotten it to 9.1:1 but not any higher than that.. I am obviously doing something wrong. The attached map has idle and then a stroll up and down my block.

Can a few of you review my log and provide me with some direction?

log
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share ... uJHle1hzBU

map
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share ... 8RfjGjmpA4

BTW -- Amazon Cloud Drive is free and a great way to share.

[silkvw]

Any chance you'll be able to bring your car to the VW Classic? April 19 to 21, in Fredericksburg, hope to see you there.

[supaninja]

Any chance you'll be able to bring your car to the VW Classic? April 19 to 21, in Fredericksburg, hope to see you there.

I was just about to ask that exact same question

[veloracer]

I want to but I don't know if I'll have the tune ironed out by then. I am traveling for work in April so my time is limited. Gonna try my hardest though.

[Piledriver]

Make absolutely sure the MS and the WB share common ground and power connections, or abandon all hope of sane readings.

The AFR selection or values in "custom" are burned to the MS each time, if you use custom values, make notes.

The settings don't pop back up, just the way it works, it's not stored by TunerStudio, just the ECU.

I have found that I always have to use custom settings or the readings are off at min and max, for example, the LC-1 cannot even read 9:1., and fuel cut should read 20:1.
(There are ~always offsets and scaling issues with analog readings)

It's not ideal to do it that way, but short of using reference gasses it's the only way we have.

I suspect some of the issue is that the MS has a relatively low impedance input for O2, and the WB controllers are designed expecting to be connected to something like a DVM (>10Mohm input)

This was actually workable on the old 14point7 JAW, as Alan had a "volts" table you could load to either output, so that you could read AFR using a DVM as the readout (13.3:1 read 1.33v etc) , I used that to calibrate my MS when I was using it the JAW (It may go back in just for that reason)

One thing that can make the WB read oddly rich is if the sensor body (other than the threads) is touching the ex pipe... my AFRs readings didn't quite make sense until I sorted that out with a file.

[silkvw]

Piledriver, how about you, going to the Classic this year????

[Piledriver]

Piledriver, how about you, going to the Classic this year????

Work usually gets in the way, but you never know...

[veloracer]

Thanks Pile, yes common ground as well as common power.

I was able to make some subtle changes and got the afr in range while idling. Took it out for a few spins on the VE analyzer and making small improvements. I am slowly but surely getting a good tune.

Giddy Up!

[Piledriver]

It looks like you probably need to crank down your MAP lag and make certain averaging is ON.
(also may need an actual vacuum "can" to act as a physical damper with ITBs, I use a 1L catch can and I have a plenum... part of my pcv setup,but I pull MAP off the can, has a chek valve in the 1/2" line to the case breather and a 1/2" line to the plenum ~14" long)

Also make sure "include AFR target" is on.

That way, once the VE table and injector dead time are reasonable, changing your AFR targets to more reasonable values will result in them being automagically correct, give or take a tenth. (setting the WB lag table up in VEAL is vital to it truly working properly)

Here's my current tables (MS3 so you'll have to translate, good ignition is required)
I also use cold timing, and the closed loop idle target ramps up +100 RPM or so after 250F CLT to increase fan speed/oil pressure.
It doesn't know you may not have a IAC, it will tweak the ignition timing to keep RPM stable set up to do so.

DO use the idle timing and idle VE functions, that way your idle settings are completely isolated from your main VE/ign tables.

In my experience, the leftmost columns of VE and ign as well as your cranking timing/fuel determine your "stall resistance".
(if you find it easy to stall, play with those settings, it should pull itself out of the hole easily)

I can zip up my last MS2-extra setup for you but my setup is quite different than yours.

VEtable.png

afrtable.png

igntable.png

[veloracer]

It looks like you probably need to crank down your MAP lag and make certain averaging is ON.
(also may need an actual vacuum "can" to act as a physical damper with ITBs, I use a 1L catch can and I have a plenum... part of my pcv setup,but I pull MAP off the can, has a chek valve in the 1/2" line to the case breather and a 1/2" line to the plenum ~14" long)

I thought about a can due to the ITBs. I'll fabricate one up using ABS pipe. Is there a way to validate that averaging is on? I'm not sure what to look for.

Also make sure "include AFR target" is on.

I can't find this setting what are you referring to? I am using a Combined VE\AFR so based off of what I've read, the AFR is not really used unless I use Separate VE/AFR w/WB. I thought about changing to Separate but I am still not 100% sure on the VE table yet.

It doesn't know you may not have a IAC, it will tweak the ignition timing to keep RPM stable set up to do so.

DO use the idle timing and idle VE functions, that way your idle settings are completely isolated from your main VE/ign tables.

Are you referring to the Idle Control functions? Suggesting that I change my Idle Control from None to a IAC? I do have the Cold Advance set up.

In my experience, the leftmost columns of VE and ign as well as your cranking timing/fuel determine your "stall resistance".
(if you find it easy to stall, play with those settings, it should pull itself out of the hole easily)

Cool, I'll keep this in mind. No real stalling yet. Thanks for the response Pile. I was able to do a few runs yesterday and my logs better. My AFR is rather fat still most of the time (12:1 ish) right now. Latest log below

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share ... xlqnQvLC-s

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

TonyG

[Piledriver]

I thought about a can due to the ITBs. I'll fabricate one up using ABS pipe. Is there a way to validate that averaging is on? I'm not sure what to look for.

That's found where the lags are on MS2 IIRC, on MS3 it gets it's own menu//control panel under basic/load settings>MAP sample settings. I haven't been keeping up with the MS2 FW for obvious reasons, so it's possible it has moved, but I assure you it still exists.

(I really need to reload a MS2 project on my main laptop to be of a bit more help, it does have a 750GB drive in it)

Also make sure "include AFR target" is on.

I can't find this setting what are you referring to? I am using a Combined VE\AFR so based off of what I've read, the AFR is not really used unless I use Separate VE/AFR w/WB. I thought about changing to Separate but I am still not 100% sure on the VE table yet.

basic/load settings >right side, include AFR target... Hmmm... MS3 layout may be different, but I KNOW MS2 has the setting probably in the leftmost menu towards the top, probably under general settings or such.

Are you referring to the Idle Control functions? Suggesting that I change my Idle Control from None to a IAC? I do have the Cold Advance set up.

You can still set to PWM IAC to drop into "closed loop idle control" and set the idle timing to do same.
Allows idle VE etc to be enabled with a bit better control of when and what kicks on.

BTW, if your WB is accurate, a 12:1 target is about 1-1.5 points too rich, 12:1 is piggy rich.13-13.5 is sane at WOT with common E10 fuel. 16:1+ at cruise and under ~80KPA (with plenty of timing) will give best fuel economy and lowest CHT.

Remember, adding fuel under stoich or going leaner over stoich is like retarding the timing...
Except the former is a waste of fuel (possible exception:boost)
...and what lambda=1 is varies on fuel, E10 works out to ~14.1:1 AFAICT (E10 is all I can buy around here), and there is a setting for that in TS.

At idle, to find "ideal" idle AFR, you do the best lean idle procedure just like carbs, except using the up/down buttons on the idle VE cells in the idle VE table instead of using screws to tweak the fuel at idle.

[veloracer]

BTW, if your WB is accurate, a 12:1 target is about 1-1.5 points too rich, 12:1 is piggy rich.13-13.5 is sane at WOT with common E10 fuel. 16:1+ at cruise and under ~80KPA (with plenty of timing) will give best fuel economy and lowest CHT.

Remember, adding fuel under stoich or going leaner over stoich is like retarding the timing...
Except the former is a waste of fuel (possible exception:boost)
...and what lambda=1 is varies on fuel, E10 works out to ~14.1:1 AFAICT (E10 is all I can buy around here), and there is a setting for that in TS.

At idle, to find "ideal" idle AFR, you do the best lean idle procedure just like carbs, except using the up/down buttons on the idle VE cells in the idle VE table instead of using screws to tweak the fuel at idle.

Yup, fat indeed. I'm slowly getting it closer, it was real bad at first So I now see why you have lots of timing in certain bins, starting to make sense. I'll keep tweaking, thanks again for the input\direction.

TonyG