thought it was going too well on these rebuilt front struts. (Fitted last June/July time with Rays advice).
My 412 has developed a clunking noise on the front left (better stop using N/S and O/S as its all back too front to most of you guys). The clunk only happens on slow manouvering from lock to lock when parking etc. The rest of the time it drives straight and the steering is resopnsive and precise.
Therefore is it likely that the problem lies with the top spring plate not moving as it should? How can I check this theory out? And what would cause it?
Front N/S clonking noise.
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david58
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Re: Front N/S clonking noise.
If it does it sitting still turning from lock to lock a mechanics stethoscope will help pinpoint the noise the steerinng gear box could do it also the steering stops.wshawn wrote:thought it was going too well on these rebuilt front struts. (Fitted last June/July time with Rays advice).
My 412 has developed a clunking noise on the front left (better stop using N/S and O/S as its all back too front to most of you guys). The clunk only happens on slow manouvering from lock to lock when parking etc. The rest of the time it drives straight and the steering is resopnsive and precise.
Therefore is it likely that the problem lies with the top spring plate not moving as it should? How can I check this theory out? And what would cause it?
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MGVWfan
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albert
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front ,,n/s
lane ,, go to see your ,,email,, albert ,, for your lens
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wshawn
- Posts: 209
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I'll be collecting a spare centrelink in a couple of weeks to rebuild, hope it is thetie rods they were all new last yearMGVWfan wrote:Could also be that dratted centerlink, or a tie rod end...
I did check them all today though when I crawled under it and they seemed nice and tight still. In fact nothing seemed loose and the car drives fine, so long as I don't need to park in a tight space
Then it makes a noise like the spring twisting...does that make sense?-
raygreenwood
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Several things to check. The centerlink usually makes no noise....unless the idler arm bushing is also shot. If the idler bushing is shot...common...or the arm is loose...common....as you start to cut the wheel it flexes upward or downward and knocks the cenetrlink against the subframe causing a knock each time you grip the wheel, turn, re-grip and relsease it.
(1) This knocking is a common issue with bad centering rings between the donut bushings on the radius arms. When you turn it slightly twists the control arms on their bushings...causing teh radius arm that is in the eye mount on the subframe to knock up and down in the eye. The noise will sound like its coming from somewhere just to the right of the gas pedal.
(2) You could simply have a loose cap at the top of the strut tube allowing the bottom of the strut cartridge to bang side to side and fore and aft. Did you make a rubber spacer wrap to keep the strut cartridge centered in the tube?
(3) you could have a bad strut bearing. Which do you have ...teh bonded rubber symmetrical bushings or the later assymetrical bolt pattern bushings?
If they are the early symettrical pattern...you cna only really see the damage by remving a wheel...and with the strut full extended by the weight of the cartridge and casting...take a flashlight and inspect the bushing from below in the strut tower. If you see any cracks or rips or tears...thats the problem.
The center link, idler bushing and centering rings shoudl be done as a set at the same time. Ray
(1) This knocking is a common issue with bad centering rings between the donut bushings on the radius arms. When you turn it slightly twists the control arms on their bushings...causing teh radius arm that is in the eye mount on the subframe to knock up and down in the eye. The noise will sound like its coming from somewhere just to the right of the gas pedal.
(2) You could simply have a loose cap at the top of the strut tube allowing the bottom of the strut cartridge to bang side to side and fore and aft. Did you make a rubber spacer wrap to keep the strut cartridge centered in the tube?
(3) you could have a bad strut bearing. Which do you have ...teh bonded rubber symmetrical bushings or the later assymetrical bolt pattern bushings?
If they are the early symettrical pattern...you cna only really see the damage by remving a wheel...and with the strut full extended by the weight of the cartridge and casting...take a flashlight and inspect the bushing from below in the strut tower. If you see any cracks or rips or tears...thats the problem.
The center link, idler bushing and centering rings shoudl be done as a set at the same time. Ray
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wshawn
- Posts: 209
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Hi Ray
My wife was truning the steering this morning whilst I was under it, I couldn't feel any movement from the radius arms and the rubber bushes that are there appear OK.
We didn't fit a rubber insert/wrap as we made up a concave seat for the bottom of the insert to fit snug into, however a bit of rubber may need to go in, if for nothing else to rule that out of the equation.
As for strut bearings, it has the asymetrical ones from a super beetle fitted into redrilled strut mounting points.
The idler bush is bronze, the centering rings where new last year (delrin) and the centrelink should have been done but didn't because I ran out of funds and couldn't, at the time find a spare. I have now found one to rebuild soon though and touch wood the existing one hasn't damaged anything, yet.
I've got a busy weekend doing various training courses so shall have to wait till early next week now before I get chance to investigate any further,
thanks for the advice guys.
My wife was truning the steering this morning whilst I was under it, I couldn't feel any movement from the radius arms and the rubber bushes that are there appear OK.
We didn't fit a rubber insert/wrap as we made up a concave seat for the bottom of the insert to fit snug into, however a bit of rubber may need to go in, if for nothing else to rule that out of the equation.
As for strut bearings, it has the asymetrical ones from a super beetle fitted into redrilled strut mounting points.
The idler bush is bronze, the centering rings where new last year (delrin) and the centrelink should have been done but didn't because I ran out of funds and couldn't, at the time find a spare. I have now found one to rebuild soon though and touch wood the existing one hasn't damaged anything, yet.
I've got a busy weekend doing various training courses so shall have to wait till early next week now before I get chance to investigate any further,
thanks for the advice guys.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Things to look at:
(1) Jack one front wheel up at a time with tire off the ground so strut is fully extended. You may need help for this...hard to do unless you have a good grip. Slip two fingers in between the spring coils near the bottom...and under the strut boot. You want to have a single finger both touching the strut rod...and touching the screw on cap....simultaneously. Then grab the wheel at about 12:00...and rock it in and out. If you feel movement between the strut rod and cap...first tighten the cap and check again. Then......if that does not stop it...you need a rubber spacer wrap. This movement is teh rod angling back and forth as the bottom moves free in the strut tube. Even the stock ones had this issue.
(2) Under the car with someone turning the steering wheel ..and the car jacked up...if you see the idler arm....lift or depress slightly as the centerlink starts to move sideways...the bolt is to loose on the centerlink. Its also probable that the centerlink is toasty as well.
Also...check the rubber four bolt do-nut on the steering shaft
And thinking about it further...as MGVWfan noted...if you hear this clunk when your steering is at lock...and coming up against the stop on the idler arm....it could very well be the centerlink...because once the idler hits the stop...the steering box keeps adding leverage to the centerlink...and can flex the pins in their crapped out bushings.
Oh...also....what condition are your control arm bushings in? Is either control arm slipping forward on the bushing and coming in contact with the yoke on the subframe? Ray
(1) Jack one front wheel up at a time with tire off the ground so strut is fully extended. You may need help for this...hard to do unless you have a good grip. Slip two fingers in between the spring coils near the bottom...and under the strut boot. You want to have a single finger both touching the strut rod...and touching the screw on cap....simultaneously. Then grab the wheel at about 12:00...and rock it in and out. If you feel movement between the strut rod and cap...first tighten the cap and check again. Then......if that does not stop it...you need a rubber spacer wrap. This movement is teh rod angling back and forth as the bottom moves free in the strut tube. Even the stock ones had this issue.
(2) Under the car with someone turning the steering wheel ..and the car jacked up...if you see the idler arm....lift or depress slightly as the centerlink starts to move sideways...the bolt is to loose on the centerlink. Its also probable that the centerlink is toasty as well.
Also...check the rubber four bolt do-nut on the steering shaft
And thinking about it further...as MGVWfan noted...if you hear this clunk when your steering is at lock...and coming up against the stop on the idler arm....it could very well be the centerlink...because once the idler hits the stop...the steering box keeps adding leverage to the centerlink...and can flex the pins in their crapped out bushings.
Oh...also....what condition are your control arm bushings in? Is either control arm slipping forward on the bushing and coming in contact with the yoke on the subframe? Ray
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wshawn
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:36 am
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Ok you are getting "spring wind-up"....a couple ways to go about this:
On the early style symmetrical bushing, it was easier to keep this from happening by simply keeping anti-sieze (not grease) on the top plate where it made contact with metal tube that the bearing is pressed into in the bonded bushing.
The problem with this design is that is you use grease here...it gathers dust and wears the heck out of everything. Also....depending on your outside conditions...it may end up being a once a year thing adding anti-sieze compound. Been there and done that.
On the symmetrical bonded bushing (411 and early 412) This can be better solved by using a sheet of .030" "etched/bonded" teflon epoxied to the top of the spring plate and lubed with ant-sieze for good measure. Its cheap slick and tough....and the thicknesss of the bearing tube is wide enough that it does not cut into the teflon.
I have also used .050" thick polypropylene sheet that is not glued down as a sliding thrust washer between top plate and bonded bushing. It works well also.
However, both of these methods are very hard to do with the assymetrical bushing. The edge of the bearing cup is thin and sharp and cuts the teflon.
The correct stock set up is to use a combination of forged flat washers and shims under the conical bearing cup so that the washers are built up to the exact same height as the outer flange edge of the bearing cup so the flange and the washer stack are all load bearing against the top plate. Its hard to do. I usually end up setting the washer stack and then sanding teh flange slightly.
The best set up I have found for all is this....
part # 5151020 at www.Rockauto.com
I can't link to rockauto but here is a link with a picture
http://www2.partstrain.com/store/?D=str ... 2732&Nty=1
Don't buy it at that link though...buy it local or at Rock auto. You should not have to pay more than $12 for each side.
This is the strut bearing for a 1999 Mazda 626 LX (which fits a lot of cars). It is about 3/16" thick maybe a little thicker. It has NO ball or needle bearings inside. It is a 2 part HDPE (high density polyethylene) "glide".
Notice the flange in the center. The hole in the center is the exact same diameter as our strut rods.
So....take your top plate and have teh center hole enlarged in a machine shop to exactly the OUTSIDE diameter of that center flange.
Snap teh 626 bearing in and reassemble normally. Your strut bearing cone...with its washers...will ride on the top section. This two part bearing is filled with synthetic grease. Nicely sealed. So..... the bottom side is against the top plate, the top slide is against the strut bushing (early symmetrical) or the bearing cup/cone (late assymetrical)...and they glide against each other independantly.
More importantly...the strut rod now protrudes through the top plate and through the center of the 626 bearing and the step on the strut rod comes nicely to rest on the washer beneath the bearing. Which means.....when you turn the steering wheel......and the strut tube rotates...the spring rotates independantly and cannot wind up.
This is a really simple and cheap but very good performance mod.
These bearings are about $10.
Go down to a FLAPS and look at one...and look at how they install on the Mazda strut...and you will get it immediatley. ray
On the early style symmetrical bushing, it was easier to keep this from happening by simply keeping anti-sieze (not grease) on the top plate where it made contact with metal tube that the bearing is pressed into in the bonded bushing.
The problem with this design is that is you use grease here...it gathers dust and wears the heck out of everything. Also....depending on your outside conditions...it may end up being a once a year thing adding anti-sieze compound. Been there and done that.
On the symmetrical bonded bushing (411 and early 412) This can be better solved by using a sheet of .030" "etched/bonded" teflon epoxied to the top of the spring plate and lubed with ant-sieze for good measure. Its cheap slick and tough....and the thicknesss of the bearing tube is wide enough that it does not cut into the teflon.
I have also used .050" thick polypropylene sheet that is not glued down as a sliding thrust washer between top plate and bonded bushing. It works well also.
However, both of these methods are very hard to do with the assymetrical bushing. The edge of the bearing cup is thin and sharp and cuts the teflon.
The correct stock set up is to use a combination of forged flat washers and shims under the conical bearing cup so that the washers are built up to the exact same height as the outer flange edge of the bearing cup so the flange and the washer stack are all load bearing against the top plate. Its hard to do. I usually end up setting the washer stack and then sanding teh flange slightly.
The best set up I have found for all is this....
part # 5151020 at www.Rockauto.com
I can't link to rockauto but here is a link with a picture
http://www2.partstrain.com/store/?D=str ... 2732&Nty=1
Don't buy it at that link though...buy it local or at Rock auto. You should not have to pay more than $12 for each side.
This is the strut bearing for a 1999 Mazda 626 LX (which fits a lot of cars). It is about 3/16" thick maybe a little thicker. It has NO ball or needle bearings inside. It is a 2 part HDPE (high density polyethylene) "glide".
Notice the flange in the center. The hole in the center is the exact same diameter as our strut rods.
So....take your top plate and have teh center hole enlarged in a machine shop to exactly the OUTSIDE diameter of that center flange.
Snap teh 626 bearing in and reassemble normally. Your strut bearing cone...with its washers...will ride on the top section. This two part bearing is filled with synthetic grease. Nicely sealed. So..... the bottom side is against the top plate, the top slide is against the strut bushing (early symmetrical) or the bearing cup/cone (late assymetrical)...and they glide against each other independantly.
More importantly...the strut rod now protrudes through the top plate and through the center of the 626 bearing and the step on the strut rod comes nicely to rest on the washer beneath the bearing. Which means.....when you turn the steering wheel......and the strut tube rotates...the spring rotates independantly and cannot wind up.
This is a really simple and cheap but very good performance mod.
These bearings are about $10.
Go down to a FLAPS and look at one...and look at how they install on the Mazda strut...and you will get it immediatley. ray