sealer under primer OR seal & prime in one step

[alsehendo]

I have a sanded down VW and etch primer the few bare spots. I am going to use Sherman Williams Ultra 700 paint system. I have no idea what paint is on the car now but it's not original--different than the door jams. I really don't want to take it down to bare metal.

Is this correct sequence:
1. Sand original paint 220-400 grit.
2. Spray a sealer.
3. Spray a filler primer without sanding sealer.
4. Sand primer before color coat.
5 Spray 3 coats color
6. Spray 5 coats clear
7 Sand 1500-2000 grit
8. Buff and polish.

Do these modern paint systems usually have a product that combines the sealing and primming step 2 &3. Here was what I was looking at in the Sherman Williams site about their primers and sealers. Which would you use?

http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/produ ... cfm?cat=25

http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/produ ... fm?cat=105

Thanks.

[doc]

If down to bare metal, I use the primer/etcher (sealer) product, then a "high build" primer to fill in all the low spots. If I'm painting over paint, I skip the primer/etcher. Rest of your sequence seems right on.

Good luck,

doc

[MNAirHead]

Thanks for the post.

I'm concerned about the following comment.

I have no idea what paint is on the car now but it's not original

There are paints that do not go together.. like oil and water... before shooting ANYTHING... I'd either be stripping below this OR having a positive ID done.

How to get a positive ID?????? Stop by an old school, non-chain body shop with some tenured guys. Bring in a pepperoni pizza (about 11:30 a.m.) and ask for an opinion.. as 5 guys are munching your pizza they'll get to a consensus of what it is and how to tackle it. I know this sounds nutty - it works every time.

I have had paints reject each other - this turns into a big mess a few months after the project is considered done.



Sequence Notes.

Step Zero
Start by totally cleaning the car and using a solvent cleaner to 100% clean the car.

Step Zero - 2
Remove all Bondo. 90% of repainted cars have talc based fillers.. these really should be removed.


1. Sand original paint 220-400 grit.
I always am concerned with adhesion.. I'll go a bit more agressive on sanding and commit to filling and building.

I then apply a correct build primer.. then the sealer to lock in the primer and filler.


2. Spray a sealer.
Please check above.

3. Spray a filler primer without sanding sealer.
Please check above

4. Sand primer before color coat.
Correct -check for straightness.

5 Spray 3 coats color
3-4 is good depending on your gun quality and technique.

6. Spray 5 coats clear
If you have time and patience, it's nice to do a wet sand before the final couple of clears.. reason - the more you build.. the higher the high spots.. the lower the low. I'll post a pix of a floor we did.. this is not burnished.. our trick? we "sand" before final finish coat... then wait to burnish it.

7 Sand 1500-2000 grit
Picky clarification.. wet sand.

8. Buff and polish.
Picky claridfication... after it's cured.

In between steps it's always good to use the correct cleaning.. any missed steps contribute to a failure.


Your QuestionDo these modern paint systems usually have a product that combines the sealing and primming step 2 &3.

They normally do. For some reason I just don't trust it... kind of like this CLR stuff they sell on TV.. of course it pulls the corrosion off a penny in 2 seconds.. I"m bright enough to realize it will pull the chrome off my faucets just as quick.

This is an "opinion" not a scientific fact - filler and sealers have 2 differerent functions and will have 2 different chemcial forumlations.. A combo pimer/sealer would be much like not tapiing joints in drywall and going straight to some type of paint - it would fail after a few months... remember this is an opinion - I'm probably wrong.


What to use.
Start with the EXACT white paper on your chosen paint. Sherwin Williams will make primers that do not mix correctly with their own brands of paints.

QUESTION
Why not take it to steel? I've noticed that it takes me just about the same total time to do body on scuffed paint as it does body off down to metal. No matter what I'll always take the door perimeters.. all 4 pillars . channels and lower rear 1/4 down to bare steel.... along with wheel wells.. witth all windows removed... The worst results I've had with a parital job are 69+ bugs.. the steel alloy changed

What is the year, budget and objective for this car?

If interested - PM me an address.. I have a step by step hand out on how to do paint steps... would post it - not sure if it's copywrighted.


Any other opinions or pointers?

Good question.. thanks

[MNAirHead]

On the primer.. consider a 2 part high buck version.. this will increase your seal a bit.. and may extend the life of your repaint.

Old timers have told me this helps "lock in" the current state of the substrate.

[alsehendo]

“What is the year, budget and objective for this car?”
74 412 square back, someone painted it orange--yuck. I want it red again and lucky they did not paint any jams or any unseen areas. The orange paint was in good shape but some small amount of body work was required—rusted metal removal replacement. Ultra 7000 is Sherman Williams top of the line painting system but is about 2/3 PPG and Dupont—thus my choice. I'll pay what I need to for a good modern base clear modern paint system.



I sanded it down and did a very little bit of metal body work and filled with high quality paint store filler, (Rage), last fall. I removed all the windows except the windshield. I wanted to avoid this because the 412 windshield is huge and very very rare—worried I might break it..


“Start with the EXACT white paper on your chosen paint. Sherwin Williams will make primers that do not mix correctly with their own brands of paints.“
“This is an "opinion" not a scientific fact - filler and sealers have 2 different functions”
I felt like you, (from reading I have little real experienced). What weirded me out was @ the Sherman Williams site most the sealers in the Ultra 7000 system seam to be fillers also. On the web site they divide all the protects that go together. Another words you click on Ultra 7000 system and it lists all the product options for that system.. There main sealers are called high build primer / surfacers and the only red one is just such a primer / sealer. Filler. They do list what I guess is an exception-- I was leaning toward this one: S59 Ultra Fill II sealer is a premium two-component sealer designed to provide excellent topcoat holdout for superior gloss and DOI. It also fills P400 or finer grit scratches, to prevent sand scratch swelling and ensure adhesion to OEM substrates. It is also tintable with selected toners to speed topcoat coverage.

Then I was thinking about this high fill primer on top of this sealer partially for safety and easy of use reasons:
ULTRA-FILL? HS 2.1 VOC NISO Primer NP2100 is a premium quality, 2.1 VOC primer-surfacer that is free of lead, chromates, and isocyanates. NP2100 features high build, excellent gloss holdout, and superb sanding characteristics. NP2100 can be used over properly treated and prepared steel, galvanized steel, aluminum, and fiberglass/SMC. NP2100 meets the State of California requirement of 2.1 lbs/gal maximum ready-to-spray VOC (volatile organic compound)for primer-surfacers.

“On the primer.. consider a 2 part high buck version.. this will increase your seal a bit.. and may extend the life of your repaint.”
They also make a 2K filler primer so thats an option:
Ultra-Fill HS 2K Primer-Surfacer P50 is a premium quality two-component acrylic urethane primer-surfacer designed for high build and fast filling of repair areas. P50 provides excellent gloss holdout, resistance to sand scratch swelling and sands easily. At either the maximum or normal build ratios P50 meets the U.S. National Rule requirement of 4.8 lbs/gal maximum ready-to-spray VOC

Notice the word Ultra in all the products this reconfirms the fact that they work together in my mind as well as the fact that they categorize their products is this a logical conclusion?

I will try the Pizza trick but after reading all the replies, I am now contemplating stripping to bare metal.

“If interested - PM me an address.. I have a step by step hand out on how to do paint steps... would post it - not sure if it's copyrighted.“
Look for it Thanks to your and all the responses.

[MNAirHead]

There's a T4 hatch back floating around our region for $600 if interested.

Not sure how complete your car is.

T.

[alsehendo]

"There's a T4 hatch back floating around our region for $600 if interested.
Not sure how complete your car is."

Don't tempt me--I might scrap mine and start over. I bought mine in Milwaukee for $500 its all there excep the L-Jet was burnt up from engine bay fire. I put one in from a 80 Vanagon and it drives and runs OK--front end steering is a little loose.

I actually bought it for parts, motor heater boxs, gas heater, CVs excetra but just could not destroy it. I kind of like the thing after having it for a couple of years, plus I have a lot of Type 4 motor / L-Jet stuff laying around. Hope the tranny holds up!!

[MNAirHead]

Yours looks almost too nice to bother painting with

The hatch back was oxidized silver.. ... couple of nondub guys selling it.

Funky rig.

T.

[alsehendo]

"Yours looks almost too nice to bother painting with "



Yah I no--I got a hare up my a$$ last fall and started working on it. They also only painted the outside orange which bugged me. I probably should have left it alone it was a perfectly good daily driver.

Is the $600 dollar hatch an automatic?
Maybe if It is NOT I would be interested.
I'm still looking around for a very-very cheep one for parts.
The dead in the driveway almost give away type.

[MNAirHead]

This is the issue.. your car doesn't look absolutely horrid.. if doing any paint it should go down to steel.

I didn't check if it was auto or stick.

[MNAirHead]

Links sent to PM

[alsehendo]

OK you convinced me--Off comes all the paint.

I did bring it down to bare metal were the rust bubbles and replaced some metal but I think you are saying there could be more hiding elsewhere.

Check the PM I sent you its still in my Outbox

[MNAirHead]

It's kind of like mice.. once you see one we perceive the entire house is filled with them.

The only consideration for your car is if/how to buy window seals etc.

Opinion - Before starting, I'd be lining up the consumables. Your $600 car could be $2k in rubber (if it's available in Europe).

PM me if you run into issues locating rubber.. there are connections to VW Mexico and Boards in Europe.

[MNAirHead]

Sorry for the delay.

I'd promised to post a pix of a floor finish.

This is dry - not wet like most vendors take photos of... this is unburnished... aslo notice the photo is low rez taken on a cloudy day.

I taught a homeless guy to do this - was his first finish job...

Now back to clear coats.. the trick is to "sand" after 3 coats to "knock down" the high points.. then fill the "shorter" low points.

If you shoot 10 coats without wet sanding it will look like an orange.. maybe a golf ball.

[alsehendo]

"The only consideration for your car is if/how to buy window seals etc."

reVOLKS.com

Euro or "Cal-Look" Window Rubber:
$44.00 windshield 411/412 all
$38.00 rear hatch window 411-412 wagon
$32.00 side windows 411/412 wagon
After more than a year of searching for replacement rubber seals, we finally had them made.
If you are also searching for T4 seals, [Contact Us].

I am not taking out the windshield—to chicken so $102 should do it. I have the original if necessary.

I don't like chrome trim on my cars so these cal look ones will be nice. I will be welding the holes shut on the side of the car—or might you have a better idea for me on this?

Both ways on color sanding base someone told me not unless a really bad run or flaw is present. I also did no know to sand after each clear coat.

Thanks