Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.
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OrangeCrusher
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by OrangeCrusher »

I like your "rotisserie". Makes me wish I hadn't given away that engine stand that sat in the corner for ten years.
I have a lot of this to do myself soon with my Baja. While figuring out my Woodsbuggy frame I found out going overboard tends to add in a lot of stress you can't necessarily see until you start dis/assembling and things don't line up.
I went from this fairly ordinary Berrien frame
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To this
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That engine is not light unfortunately. After all was said and done, despite painstakingly trying to take my time making that back cage and making it removable, it had so much stress in it that it doesn't match up the cage mounts and had to have holes elongated to make it bolt up. It works, but as a fabricator in the back of my mind I failed miserably. But you know what? Most things I fail on, if I'm being honest. There always seems to be that one element I may have overlooked or didn't realize until it was done or I couldn't have seen. But you know what? I believe that's what makes mechanics like me different than engineers I work with. (Notice I didn't say better, just different.) While I put a lot of thought into how I'm going to do something beforehand, there comes a time when you just have to jump off that ledge and see what happens. I definitely know next time because I have experienced what happens if I do it. Most of the engineers I've encountered in my 25 years in the work force would have gotten a lot farther trying things and failing than all the plans they made on paper and never ended up doing. Now I can see your not that type of person and I'm probably preaching to the choir, just saying sometimes it's ok to try and then see how it goes. We can always fix it later if it doesn't suit us. It's just awful tempting to get caught in the minutia and not make progress.
woodsbuggy
1970 Baja
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

As far as what goes on in engineering a lot of what you said it true. I have had many a loud discussion at my desk when specialty (subject specialists usually) engineers get together with the design engineers and work things out. The different languages each of the types of engineers talk with get confusing until you figure out what they are talking about or where they are from. I got to deal with engineers from a good part of the earth and picked up a lot of new words :wink: :lol: ).

Mistakes are normal but not good as lives could have been involved. One of the reasons for the specialist being brought in at times.

I worked mostly in secondary stress situations but did work in primary work (loads) situations also.

Slots were rarely allowed in what I did but I also heard that some were tried out in the shop but most, if not all, got caught.

We did go through a lot of erasers, that is for sure! I've worked in all kinds of different media such as paper, manilla, vellum, parchment, others I can't remember then ending up in CAD/CAM. I also was a "checker", that means I checked others work looking for mistakes, missing stuff, following the company, government, military and ISO (international Specification Office) and so on rules. I picked up my STF name from names I was called (the more polite names that is) when changes or additional things had to be done. I even caught someone trying to forge my signature/mark on the drawings.

You have added a lot of strength in the rear of you rail for sure.

Lee
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OrangeCrusher
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by OrangeCrusher »

lol yes. It's mainly there to provide 'some' extra support for the end of the motor. But also because I get carried away when I start welding. ;) Fun fun!

I recently found out I didn't design my rear airbag framework well enough. I got lucky and it didn't damage the gas tank. But it did freak me out a bit when I found it. I used 1/8x1-1/2" standard tubing. Now I got a 1/4" thick tube with a 1/4"x 1" rib all the way across the length and some gussets in the corners.
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woodsbuggy
1970 Baja
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

20210814_155536 copy.jpg
What is this? It looks like the tube is either bent with a crease in it or has been relieved in this area. The slight bend that can be barely seen isn't something I would like to see myself as the tube could bend/fail in some circumstances.

Lee
20210814_155536 copy copy.jpg
The orange arrow points to the end of what looks to be a flattened spot while the green arrow looks to be pointing to a sharper bend than the tube has. Unless it is just an illusion that and the relief/bend doesn't look good and strong.

Lee
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OrangeCrusher
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by OrangeCrusher »

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Those are pictures of what it looked like after that tube had failed. I had run the buggy through a tight dirtbike trail that had many whoops back to back. The airbags had bottomed out because I had not calculated my bump-stop placement correctly. The airbags have rubber stops inside also, but the tube just wasn't a match for the force behind the suspension. The bag bottomed and shoved the mount up into the tube and that's what caused the 'crumple' and various shapes you're looking at. It was a perfectly round tube previous to that. I'm sure there had to be some linear deformation as well since the tube got longer (the bend) yet did not separate from the frame on either end. So some of those flat spot are probably places where the tube thinned as it stretched. I'm not trained in stress analysis but I was very intrigued at how the tube deformed.

In hindsight I would go with a skinnier bag to limit the rotational force exerted on the mounts and enable the bag to be placed further outboard to have more leverage. I also wouldn't make the mounts the way I did. Right now it looks very similar except the reinforcements I mentioned in a previous post.

These airbags leak-down overnight which is a pain the butt. In the future, if I have nothing better to do, I may revamp this whole setup with a different system - especially if it fails again which I'd be surprised at. I think I'd spring the $1K for coil-overs at that point and forget all about airbags for the rest of my life on this planet. It was a stupid box I put myself in because at the time I was on woodsbuggy.com lot and influenced by some of the rigs there and what they could do. Thankfully, I can easily add coil-overs at any time. I'd just need about a grand that isn't needed for anything else at the time, which doesn't happen often for me.
woodsbuggy
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

Again, for what it is worth:

Many years ago, before I got invited over here (thanks Leather), I was on another site which is now gone. There was a guy who posted a lot who had a rail, and he was one of the first to convert to airbags (they were starting to be used in busses but also had a lot of failures with them too). He was happy with them then he disappeared for a while then posted for the last time. I don't know just what happened, but it had to do with something about the air bag setup and... someone/people got hurt.

Most of the guys I know (these are rail guys) did change over to longer travel suspensions but used what is often referred to as "air shocks" but that is a misnomer as the air is nitrogen gas. The versions most of them used had a coil over as part of the gas shock assy.

The air shocks I have used are something different than the other style of shock that is often referred to by the same slang name (I tried to post a pix but it wouldn't let me). Before I bought them, I was warned by the guy who sold them to me that they could be misused and could be "freaking" dangerous (this was from a guy who sold them who was also into buggies and this was years before I got into them).

I put them in my "64 Falcon Ranchero for when I used it for heavier loads than the suspension was designed for, but I also remembered his warning and with one exception I careful when using them and that exception was with my blue buggy as the air shocks came on it. I put too much pressure in them (100 #s :oops: ) so I could keep my paddle tires and the body apart which meant the low pressure in the tires (15#s) was the suspension and the shocks took over the torsion bars job completely. that setup is the main reasons for my almost "endo". It is also why I learned how to adjust/reset my preload on the blue buggy's rear suspension.

One of the problems with using them on trucks (this was what was I warned about) was when they were pumped up at a gas station you could lift the rear of the truck (adding a "rake" which is still being done") but (depending on how they were hooked up and used) causing some very bad situations that could end up causing roll-overs or worse! "Even worse" would be if you were carrying something tall like a refrigerator the high weight could cause the weigh load in the rear to change, and all hell could break loose (had to do with how you hooked the air up or if there was a sudden loss of air pressured.

The nitrogen style of shock (I think) can be abused also but I have seen them used a lot in the newer designed rails and heard things but never got involved with them myself.

Shocks are "dampeners" for the spring/torsion bars load and unload actions not for solo major suspension devices.

Again, the airbags (balloons) and air shocks probably do have their use, but I don't think that buggies and rails are one of the best use sources. :wink:

Lee
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OrangeCrusher
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by OrangeCrusher »

I would agree. That was not the impression given to me at the time though. I was told about how much weight they were designed to support. I was told how tough they can be which is true with exceptions. And I was told about the smooth soft ride they give. What I found out is they're an absolute pain to mount up. There's no way have sag without giving up "suspension". And four huge Ranchos cannot dampen the bouncy nature of these airbags I have. My shocks effectively do very little to control hop.

I've run about 70-80lbs. I believe they're good up to 150psi. With the air compressor I just added I've decided to run them around 40-60psi. That's as far as the compressor will inflate them in the recommended dwell time. We'll see how that goes. I have yet to really put them through the paces since a lot on my buggy is getting figured out still. Hopefully we'll see this year.

It's been a good discussion but lets get back to your buggy. What have you decided?
woodsbuggy
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

I've decided it's time for the body has to come off again, but it has been raining a lot (and heavy snow in the mountains) and some heavy winds over the weekend and this was during the times I can get help from across the street. We live in what is referred to as "the convergence zone" which is weather patterns from off the Pacific Ocean. Most all of the neighbors are now entering into the "rusting" stage of life like me so finding someone about the same height as me to help do the lifting is getting harder to do.

I also have to clean out the area where I usually put the body and the stand I had made for it so sit on years ago. I have the fuel tank mocked up in place so I want to keep there while the body is removed if I can. It is marked and clamped but who knows when lifting if something gets moved.

My wife and stepdaughter are both out of the hospital bit now and recuperating. The stepdaughter also had problems in her condo during this period that ended up big-$$$, something I couldn't fix. That's the way life it I guess... constantly trying to irk the pudding out of us just to teach us lessons!

Lee
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

What a day... sun, rain, snow then 3/8th inch hail pretty much morphed together all in quick succession of each other... while the sun was still shining and not that cold out either!

Was going to take the black buggy body off the pan today but the weather and a couple of other things stopped it from happening (has to be done outside, no room inside the garage to do it).

Lee
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

On Rubenski's build I have posted some pix and I think they should be here also for me to look at when I need to.
IMG_2714 copy copy.jpg
I took one of the pix of the ideas I have been playing with and edited the pix to show only the mounting problem a bit clearer. But it didn't show part of where I was having to go with it.
IMG_2714 copy copy copy.jpg
The green line is the center of the 3" body lift and that is where the rectangular tube welded seam is. You don't normally drill holes in a welded seam and that is for retaining strength. It also shows the Doubler I welded over the kerfing I did to match the pan's bend (for the rear of the bug's door).

The red line would be the center of the mounting brackets flange that would be over the green line. In order to make this work I would need 4 bolts, 2 on the upper part of the body lift and 2 under the seam of the body lift. Could I weld it to the body lift... yes but I am not sure I want to do that as it is a cage and may need to be replaced at some time. Also, the bolt holes would have tubes for the bolts to go through to keep salty sand from getting inside and rusting the metal quicker than it otherwise would.
IMG_2356 copy.jpg
The bolts would also handle the side hoop needed for side hits and short people wanting to get in the buggy and not stepping on the fenders or running boards (this body doesn't really have running boards as the front fenders go back to the rear fenders and would/could be very slippery if someone tried to use them to climb into the buggy).

We are still having storm fronts moving through the area which is giving us cool wet air and occasionally rain, snow and hail falling. I have to move stuff outside and the buggy along with it to get the body off the pan and back onto the storage mount.

"Cause and effect"

Lee
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave »

Seems to be an issue with short term memory loss in here:
RollCageBase_02B1.jpg
I didn't suggest putting the bolts in the centerline of the body lift tube. So the location of the weld seam is immaterial. But that tube is .120 wall anyway. WAAAAYYYY overkill.

And I DID suggest that you could install sleeves to prevent crush. Like 3/8 ID -- 5/8 OD sleeves. Weld them into the body lift tube.

The body to pan mounting bolts along the edge of the pan will transfer bend loads from the pan sheet metal to the body lift tube.

With brackets on both front and back of those verticals you will have 4 bolts in shear at each vertical. High shear bolts would make for some pretty serious strength. You can add a bottom flange on the body lift tube hanging down to and bolted to the floor panel if desired and if it makes you feel better. It' s all SO simple.
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Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave »

Furthermore, you already have the inboard side of that body lift tube double walled for 1/4" net thickness. You already have the bottom plate for the roll cage vertical tube to land on. There is NO need to go all the way to the flat part of the floor. You have it on the shelf. It SHOULD BE 3/16" plate for that. Extend that vertical to the top of the body lift tube. Just put the horizontal bolts through sleeves, bolt up through the floor pan and the base plate, and add triangular gussets at the top of the vertical plate.

You keep trying to over-complicate it Lee.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

Dusty, as usual you are missed a lot during our discussions.

The centerline had nothing to do with anything you said. When the bracket was raised to fit on the body lift the two lines were "stay out of here locations (seam location on the body lift and the centerline of the mounting bracket)". Above and/or below the lines are potential fastener locations.

The doubler is close to the location but the mount is not on the doubler.

Sorry!

Lee
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

I took one of my mockup cage pieces and cut it down so I could work with it on the front end of the car for the front hoop.
IMG_2720 copy.jpg
This is the same mockup piece in the last few pictures, and you can see how much the floor angle back there is compared to the more vertical mounting here.

Behind the tube you can see a bulge in piece which is where the window frame is to be bolted to. It also is in the way. Many years ago I had a friend come up to teach me FG work but it didn't work well at all... mostly by my inexperience and the body itself not wanting to be disturbed :wink: :lol: .
IMG_2721 copy.jpg
On all three of the pix the camera is on the floor trying to get the best shots available and this is one of them. I had to be able to see to press the shutter button so... peek a boo! Where the top roughly is is showing the cowl area. It is close to the doubler in the kerfing area but not located to the best spot. I think the seats need to come out so I can get my "k-noggin" into the area to locate the hole in the cowl.
IMG_2722 copy.jpg
This is the forward doubler and the cage hoop will be located very close to it if not partly on it.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

As usual every time I go into the garage, I look at the buggy's rear mounting for the cage. I also look here at the pix I have posted so today I got another idea (have easter and birthdays to celebrate so nothing to show until later on).
IMG_2714 copy copy copy.jpg
In this pix the two lines, when things are properly adjusted will sit over each other. The 3" rear hoop mount will sit higher and be mounted directly to the body lift so.. for the heck of it I re-bent the angle of the mount back to 90°. I then turned the 1" X 2" spacer you see here so the spacer now sits on the 1" side vs. sitting on the 2" side. Since the pan has a drop angle in it I took a fairly think piece of flat sock and put it under the inboard side of the spacer to off-set the angle and guess what.. the cage tube sits at 90° vertical. The tube still hits the upper flange on the body so the tube will be moved inboard some to get clearance needed to protect the body.

I have to remove the seat in order to get pictures for me to look at so I will post them when I get things done.

Lee
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