Brake Up Grades

Ghia Nut · Post by **Ghia Nut** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:51 pm

Ok, so this forum is dead right now, so I figure Id ask some questions.
Whats the maximum size rotor I can fit in the back? Is the conversion hard? And can I get some better pads for up front such as Hawk HKS pads?

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:50 am

The original system, when in good order & adjusted properly and Dot 4 fluid, works very well for me. It's light & gets the job done. There are several people doing some big things for brakes on GermanLook, But. For my slightly lowered Ghia, the 5.5" wide wheels are as big as I can muster without cutting the fenders. Also, the clearance between my Fuchs and the front calliper is pretty small. I would hate to invest the "down-time" & money to upgrade calipers & discs to find that they won't fit behind the Fuchs. One other thing, I put a light flywheel on to help acel & decel and bigger discs would just work in the opposite direction. I'm guessing you are seeing & thinking the same things.
What I have done so far is get some Porterfield R4S pads & shoes, front & rear. These are much more agressive than stock but still not up to par with circuit race pads that are noisy, dirty, and don't work unless HOT. I got mine from Livermore Performance. 4 pads & 4 shoes cost $152.64 after shipping.
Part #'s are Port R4S-AP30 for 2 pin pads, and Port R4S-Shoe 315 for shoes.
There are people that are taking stock discs and and drums & drilling them. I'll look for the link to that.

volkswagen50 · Post by **volkswagen50** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:06 am

Ozzies right. Be carefull what you wish for, bigger discs in back may make the car tail happy. Under hard braking the weight shift to the front will make the rear lighter, motor or not. Rear lockup might stall the car and/or make the rear slide around. Try the big type three drums in the rear, or even normal size discs back there.

Oz, while you are correct in saying the flywheel effect is try of bigger discs, the numbers in real acceleration for the given size of the disc going up even a half inch is tiny given the overall diameter. think a 180 clutch being better than a 200 clutch. Because it's smaller it's faster, right? yes but such a very small amount as to be almost unmeaserable. That flywheel had it's weight taken from the very outer edge where it makes the most difference, that's why most of them are 12.5 to no less than 10lbs. Less than that just doesn't make a difference that you can see or feel. Just curious, how's that flywheel feel? I got one now too, but haven't fired it up yet. Waiting on heads.

Hey Oz, what's the measurement from the center of the spindle to the farthest point on the caliper? I'm trying to see what size wheel I can go down to with discs up front. I don't have them yet to measure, but the racing wheels I want have a center of 11.25 inches. A very small center drop for a 13" wheel. Greg

Ghia Nut · Post by **Ghia Nut** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:22 am

wow, 13 in wheel? Whats the width of that?

volkswagen50 · Post by **volkswagen50** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:13 pm

The wheel is 13"x7". Diamond racing makes them, 13lbs too! I can put a 9.5" Hoosier race slick on it only 20" tall. I'm skipping FSP and going to EP. Gutted the car today. Can't wait ! But before I buy that lot I need to know the diameter of stock VW front discs with caliper. Thanks, greg

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:57 am

volkswagen50 wrote: Just curious, how's that flywheel feel?

It is crisper. It's not like you just put in 10 more ponies, it's more like the ponies you have are now getting off their collective asses. Everything just seems to be working better. Faster rev, less studder from idle to WOT, The throttle-off decel is noticeable too.

volkswagen50 wrote:Hey Oz, what's the measurement from the center of the spindle to the farthest point on the caliper? I'm trying to see what size wheel I can go down to with discs up front. I don't have them yet to measure, but the racing wheels I want have a center of 11.25 inches. A very small center drop for a 13" wheel. Greg

I'll see if I can't get that for you quick. It's close enough on my wheels that you can't get your fingers between them. I would expect that there isn't enough room for 13's and 14's might be a stretch.

volkswagen50 · Post by **volkswagen50** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:51 pm

Thanks Ozzie. I have a 73 type three with discs up front and on one side I have a 14" fitted and there is some room on that setup. It might come down to the size of the center section on what ever wheel I end up with.

Any truth that the type three disc is the same size?

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:57 pm

Stock Ghia disc brakes front and CB performance Roto Hub disc in the back, New Master cylinder(stock SB unit) and steinless steel braided hoses with some super blue ATE fluid and the Ghia stops better than my 2003 Golf TDI.

You may want to get a vented setup for the front, but unless you're racing the car in a cuvey circuit, it's not needed. Looks cool as hell though.

E

ericsbracer · Post by **ericsbracer** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:16 pm

For what it's worth, and openly acknowledging that Auto-X racing is very different... having done the curvey stuff, unless and/or until you've made some pretty substantial upgrades in horsepower, vented rotors aren't really necessary. Actually, even rear disc's can be a bit of overkill.

Let me explain... From my experience with racing a VW with anything from 40 to 100ish HP, your ability to slow down needs to be matched with your ability to accelerate. In a road racing situation, you really need to stop that fast in case of an emergency. The key to lowering lap times is carrying as much momentum as you can. Even if you can scream up to a corner and stop on a dime with 7 cents change, it actually hurts the lap times if you can't regain that speed equally as fast. With a relatively "normal" performance set up - you can't. For all the racing I did, from Willow Springs where I was flat out for 2.2 of the 2.5 miles, to Las Vegas's club track of 1.6 miles (and 50+ cars

) I never had a time when I felt like I needed better braking than my stock disc's and T3 rear drum set up.

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:33 pm

I'm with you Eric.
One way to simplify autocross, just for thinking about it, is to take out the turns. In other words, it's a 40 to 60 second race to see who can, from a dead stop, accelerate to 35 mph, brake to 15, accelerate to 40, brake to 10, accelerate to 65, brake to 30, the fastest. Add a few more in there if you like, but you should get the picture. Anything you can do to be more effective at either acceleration or breaking will yield a better score. A score where a tenth of a second makes a big difference. Rotating parts do three things. They add overall weight to the car (1). Weight is your sworn enemy. They are harder to speed up (2) & slow down (3). That's rotational inertia. I find it comical when you see these people putting 17" or 18" rims on their VW's. That's just a big anchor times four. Smaller wheels & tires do just the opposite plus you get a gearing advantage. Back to brakes, the smaller (lighter) the system, the faster you'll go. If it does the job, why hurt the acceleration side when the only benefit on the brakeing side is not having to push the pedal as hard?
Rebuttal is invited. I'm just learning.

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:06 pm

volkswagen50 wrote:Hey Oz, what's the measurement from the center of the spindle to the farthest point on the caliper?

6-3/8"

Sorry it took so long.

"Honey, can you get the decorations out of the attic...honey, where's the Christmas card list...Honey, why doesn't the heater work...honey...honey...honey..."

helowrench · Post by **helowrench** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:17 am

Amen Ozzie,
by the time I got the decorations out and half up, tree bought, presents lined out,and got a chance to breathe,
I come back here to 357 new posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really enjoy my ghia with stock brake set-up (all new parts bled correctly new lines/hoses)
the only mods I am considering are larger bore rear wheel cylinder and/or type3 set up, but I have to get my clearance issue sorted out so the tires I want can be fitted before I decide how much more rear braking will work for me.

I have been junkyard hopping recently and found that the Volvo mid80's thru mid 90s used a rear caliper that is remarkably similar to the ghia front 2pin.............only about 1/4" by 1/4" larger pad.
I am considering trying to make a mount for them.

Rob

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:11 am

That volvo caliper idea is now bad. I wonder how the BMW ones will work also. Then again, the rotor may need to be thicker.

This can be fixed if you can machine each half of the caliper apart to make it the right width.

E

helowrench · Post by **helowrench** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:19 pm

the disc looked to be about the same width.
I have not looked up the min allowed thickness on the volvo and vw disc yet to compare them
they will need brackets made, unless the holes can be slotted or the vw knockles welded and redrilled.
I have access to a milling machine so thickness differences can be ironed out.

I am just tired of having to mail order pads.

Honestly as I was wandering through the junkyard they caught my eye as there were many volvos and they all had the same caliper and looked almost identical (but slightly larger) to the ghia square pad caliper.

Rob

Ephry73 · Post by **Ephry73** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:02 pm

I can see that. Well, I can get pads for my Ghia from NAPA, Pepboys, Autozone, etc...

If you want High performance ones even Pepboys has them.

Just curious, where are you that you need to mail order them? You can even get refurbished calipers for a Ghia at NAPA.

E