front inside lift

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:38 pm

this is a pretty common issue our rear engine wonders: hard in the corner the front inside wheel lifts off the ground. you can see this happening, for example, in greg ward's picts posted on this forum.

the first line of defense is to stiffen the rear. but let's say you have the rear torsions and roll bar as stiff as you want them, and you're still getting front wheel lift. how would stiffer torsion leaves up front effect the situation? i'd think that stiffening the front might actually make this worse, but i'm not sure. thoughts?

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:02 pm

I have never been able to totally fix this lift condition however, if you have a race car with 30mm TBs then you will not get much lift in the corner. If you have a street car or a dual use car with smaller TBs then you will get more lift.

The other issue for me is the camber change when you turn the wheel will start to pull the tire off the ground even before the car is in motion. This is not noticed with street tires since the sidewall compensates for the angle change.

I have not used stiffer front leaves as it's not hard to get the front to skip on uneven pavement under braking with a light front end. In autocrossing if I can't get the car to turn (from squat or too much torque) I eventually have to lift to get the car weight forward to steer and redirect the car. I really hate this condition but have been able to live with it over the years.

Sorry if I don't get back to you for a while because I rarely get time to get on line. Have fun racing!! I'll see you right coast folks at the Bug Out slalom next month!

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:06 am

How is your rear (of the car) set up? What size tortion bar & sway bar are you running? Any other backside mods? Like you, I suspect stiffening the front more will only exacerbate the front inside lift.

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:45 pm

speaking of front inside lift:
Mike T's avatar -

my rear is IRS:
Sway-A-Way 28mm torsion bars (24-11/16" length, 1302 lbs/deg )
Sway-A-Way 3/4" sway bar
Porsche 944 steel trailing arms
Sway-A-Way heavy duty spring plates
Energy Suspension Urethane
Blistein shocks

i would think that given how much siffer the rear is than stock, that it would be a good thing to stiff the front... but i really don't want to make the front lift issue worse.

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:16 am

I was waiting for someone else to jump on this, but here goes.
Do you know someone with a Whiteline rear sway bar that's bigger than the 19mm you're running? For the front to lift, the rear is able to lean more. You already have big tortion bars. I've seen 30mm recomended as much as the 28's. If there's a sway bar out there you could use, I'd try it. Otherwise I'd lay down the green. BTW, I have f & r SAW bars sitting in my garage. I wish I had found Whiteline before the bad investment.

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Tue May 02, 2006 10:34 am

I'm using the Whitelines with full light adjustment on the front and heavy on the rear. This set up works good for my autocross style but full on I still lift a wheel. In rally the set up is a little heavy as the car does not have enough tire stick therefore I don't get as much body roll with the Whitelines in the dirt.

kdf · Post by **kdf** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:09 pm

The stiffness of the chassis is also important, how about bracing the rear suspension? The chassis is also part of the suspension if it isn't rigid.

Books about suspension tuning say that you should have all four wheels planted to get the best grip... But I dont think it's worth spending too much concentration on if the car is balanced and handles well.

If your front suspension already is too stiff, then it doesn't help to make it stiffer. To reduce front inside lift you should stiffen the rear or soften the front. Stiffer torsion leaves in front will make your car lift the inside front even more.

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:20 am

kdf wrote:If your front suspension already is too stiff, then it doesn't help to make it stiffer. To reduce front inside lift you should stiffen the rear or soften the front. Stiffer torsion leaves in front will make your car lift the inside front even more.

kinda what i figured... but i wanted to run it past you guys.

otis · Post by **otis** » Sat May 06, 2006 11:15 am

kdf--good explanation--even I could undrstand.

How do you soften the front? Are there softer torsion leaves available?

kdf · Post by **kdf** » Sun May 07, 2006 4:34 am

otis: You don't need softer leaf springs, you can remove some of the leaves you have to soften the spring rate in front.

I don't have any experience in this, but fvee guys do:
http://www.fvee.org.au/forums/technical ... tart:int=0

otis · Post by **otis** » Sun May 07, 2006 8:35 pm

Hey--miracles never cease! I was searching some boxes in the garage for some junk (excuse me, stuff

) my wife thought she needed and I found my stash of tech articles from Hot VWs back in the early 80's. I think that there is a how-to in there telling about removing some of torsion leaves. I'll have to do some digging through stack.

Does anyone else have boxes they've moved 4 times and never opened? I'm not sure what that says about us, but Hey!--we might need

some of that stuff some day...

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:07 am

[quote="gcorrado"]speaking of front inside lift:
Mike T's avatar -

I raced various Beetles in SCCA autocross for 6 years in H-Stock. This was back in the mid 1980's and Bugs were still reasonably competitive. That car was a 1972 with rebuilt 1600, a 4 into 1 header, KYB Gas-a-Just shocks and some negetive camber and front toe out. I was trying a 3/4" front sway bar and it resulted in the above "wheelie". The event was a street autocross in Corning, NY. The picture was scanned from an article in the Elmira Star Gazette newspaper. I went back to a stock swaybar just to balance the car. The wheels on that car were 4.5" wide Rivieras with 195/60-15 Yokohama A008R tires with lots of air pressure.

I won the H-Stock Northeastern Divisional Championships that year, 1985, with that car. The Celica GTS driver in 2nd took it the hardest.

Steve Arndt · Post by **Steve Arndt** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:15 am

do you have a bigger version of that picture file?

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Sat May 13, 2006 8:43 am

I do, but it's not on the web. To post pics here you need to have them out here somewhere and link to them.

Recommend one?

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Sun May 14, 2006 3:34 pm

Let's try this one.