3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

The VW Beetle. Everything about bugs!
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Marc
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by Marc »

rrb6699 wrote:...it hits that dead spot, or so it seems, at least once, maybe 2 times. once when it was "stuck" as I let off the key I heard the starter partially spin. of course, it started next try...
That actually bodes well. If the problem were worn spots on the flywheel teeth, it'd be unlikely to crank on the next try without you manually rotating the crank ~¼ turn (there are typically 2 worn areas on a 4-cyl flywheel, 180° apart).

If you care to look while the starter's out, go under with a flashlight and watch the teeth as a helper rolls the motor over by hand.

With the exception of automatic trans cars and some buses, ACVW starters rely upon an outrigger bushing pressed into a bore in the trans case. Best practice is to renew that when replacing a starter (in fact, Bosch won't honor their warranty if you don't) because if it's worn the armature can "pole" when current is applied ... it crashes against the field windings instead of rotating.

There're special tools for removing and installing the bushing, but a tap will extract it (you just tap threads through it and keep going, when the tap hits the engine case flange the bushing will walk out) and a big bolt with a nut threaded onto it ~¾" will suffice for a driver to install the new one.

New bushing or not, poke a fingertipful of grease into it before inserting the starter.

The self-supporting "automatic" starter will work in a 4-speed too - with one of those you needn't care about the condition of the bushing.
helowrench
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by helowrench »

rrb6699 wrote:it has symptoms of an array of things, but, the thing that tips me towards the starter was running out of gas. fuel gauge not calibrated yet. at full it is just past halfway but at empty it seems to be right on. at least thats what I found out.

anyway, when I start the bug several times as when I ran out of gas, it hits that dead spot, or so it seems, at least once, maybe 2 times. once when it was "stuck" as I let off the key I heard the starter partially spin. of course, it started next try.

thats all I know. I will check the resistance of the circuit from terminal # 50 connector under the back seat and change it to a butt connector just to eliminate that.
Actually, change it to a shielded spade male/female connector.
Then, the next time it acts up, use a separate piece of wire to go straight to the battery (+ side), to see if the problem persists.

If the starter spins immediately, the problem is either the switch or the wiring.

I fought with a bad key switch for quite some time, and ended up with a pushbutton on the dash. as several replacement switches had failed.
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rrb6699
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by rrb6699 »

yea, the cost and speed at which I can replace the column switch made me order 2 backup switches. I replaced one which had burnt points and no conductivity. after I cleaned the point contacts off by actually taking the switch apart and sanding them clean, I saw one of them had only a partial contact because it burnt off.

when I replaced the initial switch before I ordered the backup switches, it had no problems starting. I got the two new switches, swapped the initial one out and it seemed like that was the problem, but, thedead spot happened again on a different occasion. then I had to think either this switch is getting burnt out or the starter actually is the problem.

if the switch is burning contacts then I gotta wonder what current is passing through there in when starting it. usually it starts right up with a quick turn, but, when it hits the dead spot thats probably burning the contact my logical guess.

I am not aware of what a "self-supporting 'automatic' starter" is. who sells this? I just thought buy the cheapest reman and you're good to go.
RR

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cbeck
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by cbeck »

the self supporting starter is also known as a auto stick starter because it came on auto stick beetles.
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Marc
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by Marc »

The "auto" starter's Bosch designation is SR17 (SR17X for a rebuilt). 4-speed's SR15X.

Autozone sells a Duralast for $36. I bought one a while back and it hasn't missed a beat. The core charge is $16 so it might be worth making two trips to take in the core a few days later when nobody will remember what it's supposed to look like :wink:

http://www.autozone.com/batteries-start ... ing=search
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rrb6699
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by rrb6699 »

thats the starter I just bought that has the miss spot. 2 months ago. in fact, the very first time I tried to start it I got the no start. I thought I hooked a wire up wrong - the small spade plug on top of it, so I switched terminals even though I suspect they were actually 2 spades to the same connection.
but, it started after I did that so I thought somehow that's what I did since I could only feel the spades on top of the starter not see them with starter installed.
it was less than a couple weeks later when I found the "dead spot" again.

in fact, it happened just today at the store but after 4 turns of the key and no start I decided to roll start it in 2nd. then while coasting I shut it down and turned the key to start it and it sounded like it kicked out of its jammed state and the car started.

since that incident it started fine 4 times.

the starter is a lifetime warranty and I have all the paperwork so im returning it this week. gonna be nice weather.
RR

1972 Restoration Project.
helowrench
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by helowrench »

There is a slight possibility that the upper passenger side engine mount bolt is loose, and the starter is binding occasionally.
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Piledriver
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by Piledriver »

...or a worn starter bushing as Marc previously noted, can cause same symptoms.

The automatic starters do tend to have a little more umph and have less issues in general.
Autozone has taken a "return" on a starter from me and provided full credit towards a different model after a few serial failures.
Might want to ask if they'd swap for an automatic unit. Can't hurt to ask..
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rrb6699
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by rrb6699 »

could a new starter have a worn bushing?
RR

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Piledriver
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by Piledriver »

rrb6699 wrote:could a new starter have a worn bushing?
Absolutely, its not part of the starter.

If you didn't personally replace the starter shaft bushing in the transmission, i guarantee it has a somewhat worn bushing.
It doesn't come with the starter, it probably should, but it would just confuse most folks..
They are only a few bucks...

I have found them completely missing more than once.
(That doesn't parse right, but I'm toast)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by SCOTTRODS »

Piledriver wrote:I have found them completely missing more than once.
(That doesn't parse right, but I'm toast)
Stole that one... Needed a new Signature anyway!
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

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rrb6699
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by rrb6699 »

Update. May have narrowed down the power loss issue that had multiple symptoms of power or fuel loss.

to review, I put a Weber two barrel 32 36DFAV 23 E6 carb on this Bug. well yesterday I thought the bug was running a bit rough at times but once in gear it was smooth sailing. ive set the idle low so to save fuel while I use gearing to slow down.

anyway another story. I did some errands yesterday then came home and had to leave again. when I took off I drove a block to the stop sign and before I started to take off I noticed the thing started to act up. I tried to give it gas but it was dying. finally it stalled out and I couldnt restart it.

I tried some starting fluid and it acted like it wanted to start, but, after it used up the starting fluid I couldnt start it. of course I kept getting several "dead spot" no starts while I was attempting to start it.

I had a friend come to aid me and when I used the starting fluid he covered the intake with his hand and choked the carb off. it started and kept running. it took several times using his hand to choke and open his hand on the carb until he said fuel started sucking up again.

he thought something is sticking in the carb. plus I noticed the intake gasket is leaking gas at the base of the carb. when I poured gas into the carb it leaked out the base, so need a new gasket there and that could be sucking in air too but not sure that is affecting the carb operation much.

so, I figure he is right and the carb is either having a clog or valve sticking or the float is sticking down. my question is, although I feel I gotta take the carb apart to see whats going on in there, should I lubricate internal parts lightly with some marvel oil or something when I reassemble the carb?
What do you think is the problem in the carb given what my friend did and it started? I attached a pic of the Weber. its been on the Bug about 5yrs.

i'm still having this no start click at times (especially when I stall like this and need to try to start several times). when it happens I just turn the key 4 or 5 times and usually it will start. I dont want to trust the Bug starting every time I have this no start/click. so, I'm still interested in all the things I need to check to track down why this is happening. im going to replace the starter under warranty and want to make sure I dont miss anything like greasing or replacing the bushing this time which I did not do last time because my access under the vehicle was too limited to get a good angle on it.

tia
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Last edited by rrb6699 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
RR

1972 Restoration Project.
helowrench
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by helowrench »

For the click......
My Ghia does that when it wants the grounds cleaned.
Check you battery grounds, and the transmission ground at the nosecone.
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rrb6699
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by rrb6699 »

does it always do it or will it start then act up again like mine? im going to check grounds again. I didnt know about the ground on transmission nose.
RR

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rrb6699
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Re: 3 problems on my 72 Beetle cropped up

Post by rrb6699 »

I seem to have problems uploading images. does anyone know if there is a max size image? I think thats the problem.
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1972 Restoration Project.
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