Agree with Berg on most stuff, but not CR. I'm also going back to a non SEMI cut head on my next motor.
The low compression and the Semi-head will work, some say they don't like it or it overheated. The trick is you must run 4-6 dgrees more timing, or it will loose power and run hotter. berg says this in his book.
But if you run more CR and less timing, the car is much easier to tune, has more bottom end and more power. The motor still runs cool because less throttle is needed for any given engine speed. Of course if you run it wide open for a long period of time it will overheat. Where the low CR motor will live. But who runs wide open 100% of the time?
Type 1 vs. Type 4
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Cpt Zoomy
- Posts: 427
- Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
You haven't seen my wife drive!@!!!!!
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James2
- Posts: 3148
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
I'm leaving this thread to darryl and dan, it's obviuous to me both are just to smart for us average joe's.
I'm going out to the garage and jack up the compression on my new 63 ragtop.
I'm going out to the garage and jack up the compression on my new 63 ragtop.
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Paul Illick
- Posts: 824
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
Boy, sounds like Dan and Darryl are reviving the Flat Earth Society. It's a big world folks, with a whole spectrum of colors. Don't you guys get cable? Different engines do different things for different people. Simple concept, and I know you understand it. Heck, I'd bet you even have a waterpumper somewhere in your family.
Now the T4 folks are big enough to grant that until there are better heads for the T4 the T1 will make a better drag race engine. But quarter miles aren't the ONLY race tracks around, and most of us don't spend THAT much of our car's lives drag racing, either. So now YOU tell me. I'm interested in a real healthy aircooled with Big Power. It's a daily driver, so I don't care so much about peak power, or a power band that's 2000 rpm's wide. What I need is real good torque (street motor) for a wide-ratio trans, good power all the way from 2000 to a max of 5500-6000 RPM, and it has to have long term bullet-proof reliability. Long straight stretches in Texas, and it's hot. You don't think I maybe ought to look at a T4 motor? Be honest now.
One last thing. Gene's a legend. Deserves to be, too. But he's no longer with us, and VW life didn't stop when the blue book was published. If you intend to go forward then sooner or later you're going to have to start figuring things out for yourself. An open mind would be a big help with that.
Now the T4 folks are big enough to grant that until there are better heads for the T4 the T1 will make a better drag race engine. But quarter miles aren't the ONLY race tracks around, and most of us don't spend THAT much of our car's lives drag racing, either. So now YOU tell me. I'm interested in a real healthy aircooled with Big Power. It's a daily driver, so I don't care so much about peak power, or a power band that's 2000 rpm's wide. What I need is real good torque (street motor) for a wide-ratio trans, good power all the way from 2000 to a max of 5500-6000 RPM, and it has to have long term bullet-proof reliability. Long straight stretches in Texas, and it's hot. You don't think I maybe ought to look at a T4 motor? Be honest now.
One last thing. Gene's a legend. Deserves to be, too. But he's no longer with us, and VW life didn't stop when the blue book was published. If you intend to go forward then sooner or later you're going to have to start figuring things out for yourself. An open mind would be a big help with that.
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
>>>dan, I like you, really I do, but I have come to conclusion that you just like to have these little conflicts.<<<
yeah, a lotta conflicts lately with certain types of people from georgia.
isn't it strange how none of 'em will address the type 4 head cracking issues?
i guess it's a lot easier to get personal, when you can't talk technical.
or when you think you know more than people who have worked with hundreds of vw heads...
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
yeah, a lotta conflicts lately with certain types of people from georgia.
isn't it strange how none of 'em will address the type 4 head cracking issues?
i guess it's a lot easier to get personal, when you can't talk technical.
or when you think you know more than people who have worked with hundreds of vw heads...
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
>>>Now the T4 folks are big enough to grant that until there are better heads for the T4 the T1 will make a better drag race engine.<<<
paul, it seems that this entire thread blew in one of your ears and right out the other, so will repeat the gist of it:
TYPE 4 HEADS ARE VERY PRONE TO CRACKING.
why not address that issue FIRST, when deciding which platform to build?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
paul, it seems that this entire thread blew in one of your ears and right out the other, so will repeat the gist of it:
TYPE 4 HEADS ARE VERY PRONE TO CRACKING.
why not address that issue FIRST, when deciding which platform to build?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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GodofAtheism
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
Well dan I have as much experience with t4's as you, and I ask myself, maybe they dont address it because it isnt a problem.....
my 2 cents
Peter
my 2 cents
Peter
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
>>>Well dan I have as much experience with t4's as you, and I ask myself, maybe they dont address it because it isnt a problem<<<
what, you think that rimco and fred simpson are full of crap?
or is it just because you don't know anything about the vw industry?
no flames from me, i think you are serious, and if you don't understand, then others are probably just as confused.
i just sorta took it for granted, but is there anyone else on this forum who doesn't know about the people i'm referring to?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
what, you think that rimco and fred simpson are full of crap?
or is it just because you don't know anything about the vw industry?
no flames from me, i think you are serious, and if you don't understand, then others are probably just as confused.
i just sorta took it for granted, but is there anyone else on this forum who doesn't know about the people i'm referring to?
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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Darryl
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 1:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
*
[This message has been edited by Darryl (edited 05-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Darryl (edited 05-29-2001).]
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Paul Illick
- Posts: 824
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
<<<why not address that issue FIRST, when deciding which platform to build?>>>
I did address that issue, Dan, and in fact even got the the point of thinking about putting a Subaru in the Westy. There's been a parade of T1 engines that have gone through that car in the last 35 years. You know from your own acquaintences that T2's chew up engines what, about twice as fast as sedans? Then when you add some HP (more heat) they seem to only last half that. But The T4 engines (starting out with more HP) in T2's last probably twice as long as the T1 engines did. I've had T1 engines go sour between here and California, and my son's last trip during the summer even cracked some 044's. On a T1, Dan.
I'm curious about exactly what you heard from Rimco and Fred about T4 heads. Did they mention what those hundreds of heads came out of? I'd wager that except for some 914's that every one of them came out of T2's. So do you know how those heads hold up when they're used on engines in sedans? Pretty unlikely that you could, since not many have gone into sedans here in the U.S. And if those heads came out of busses then you're not really comparing the same thing, are you? If you want to hear stories about some of that weak T1 stuff that has come apart in busses, no problem. Visit ANY shop. The T1 bus stuff usually comes apart with a bang.
If you don't want to go to Georgia (and I don't think you will, all those 'hicks' there, right, Dan?) I say get a spare 150hp T4 motor, put it in the back floor of a Westy that's running a 150hp T1 motor, load it up with friends and head east going as fast as traffic allows. When the T1 goes, whereever that might be, put the T4 in it and head back West. You'll make it home, Dan, guaranteed. Probably do it again, too.
>>>blew in one of your ears and right out the other<<< No, Dan, I'm actually an O.K. reader. I'm curious about your discussion technique, though. Do you manage to convince many people of the merits of your arguements by insulting them? Does that work for you?
I did address that issue, Dan, and in fact even got the the point of thinking about putting a Subaru in the Westy. There's been a parade of T1 engines that have gone through that car in the last 35 years. You know from your own acquaintences that T2's chew up engines what, about twice as fast as sedans? Then when you add some HP (more heat) they seem to only last half that. But The T4 engines (starting out with more HP) in T2's last probably twice as long as the T1 engines did. I've had T1 engines go sour between here and California, and my son's last trip during the summer even cracked some 044's. On a T1, Dan.
I'm curious about exactly what you heard from Rimco and Fred about T4 heads. Did they mention what those hundreds of heads came out of? I'd wager that except for some 914's that every one of them came out of T2's. So do you know how those heads hold up when they're used on engines in sedans? Pretty unlikely that you could, since not many have gone into sedans here in the U.S. And if those heads came out of busses then you're not really comparing the same thing, are you? If you want to hear stories about some of that weak T1 stuff that has come apart in busses, no problem. Visit ANY shop. The T1 bus stuff usually comes apart with a bang.
If you don't want to go to Georgia (and I don't think you will, all those 'hicks' there, right, Dan?) I say get a spare 150hp T4 motor, put it in the back floor of a Westy that's running a 150hp T1 motor, load it up with friends and head east going as fast as traffic allows. When the T1 goes, whereever that might be, put the T4 in it and head back West. You'll make it home, Dan, guaranteed. Probably do it again, too.
>>>blew in one of your ears and right out the other<<< No, Dan, I'm actually an O.K. reader. I'm curious about your discussion technique, though. Do you manage to convince many people of the merits of your arguements by insulting them? Does that work for you?
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Steve Arndt
- Posts: 7420
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JohnConnolly:
<B>I don't think this thread is out of hand. I also don't think Dan has a "business interest" in slamming the T-4. The fact is there haven't been a decent number of QUALITY T-4 powered cars available to him at the Western shows (I've been there, I know).
That's going to change soon, and I'm sure he'll be covering them when they finally show up. It will be very cool when some T-4 powered cars hit the RKC, I'm looking forward to it!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was at Bugorama Sunday May 27th. There was not a single T4 conversion. No wonder there aren't any good times to show on the strip, there weren't even any slow ones in the show area! This will change as soon as my car is finished. I am going to race it at Sac, and all you buys can watch an NA Type IV click off a 12 second pass.
Steve
<B>I don't think this thread is out of hand. I also don't think Dan has a "business interest" in slamming the T-4. The fact is there haven't been a decent number of QUALITY T-4 powered cars available to him at the Western shows (I've been there, I know).
That's going to change soon, and I'm sure he'll be covering them when they finally show up. It will be very cool when some T-4 powered cars hit the RKC, I'm looking forward to it!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was at Bugorama Sunday May 27th. There was not a single T4 conversion. No wonder there aren't any good times to show on the strip, there weren't even any slow ones in the show area! This will change as soon as my car is finished. I am going to race it at Sac, and all you buys can watch an NA Type IV click off a 12 second pass.
Steve
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Chris
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 12:01 am
Type 1 vs. Type 4
Easy there, Bill. We all know that Dan wouldn't stoop so low as to let a "hick" from Georgia (from his earlier posts) kiss his ass! 
But, it's definately put up or shut up time for Dan.
Chris Stanford
Montgomery, AL
But, it's definately put up or shut up time for Dan. Chris Stanford
Montgomery, AL
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
>>>>you keep talking about crappy type 4's are.<<<<
hey bill, when did i ever say that the type 4 was crappy?
please quote the relevant text.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
hey bill, when did i ever say that the type 4 was crappy?
please quote the relevant text.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
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dan
Type 1 vs. Type 4
>>>know from your own acquaintences that T2's chew up engines what, about twice as fast as sedans?<<<
no, paul, i don't know that, and i haven't seen it with people who know how to build and maintain the type 1... and yes, that usually does mean a valve job sooner than if the motor was in a sedan.
i have posted before about the 1776 i ran in the bubbletop van for over 60k miles, in everything from blowing snow at mammoth to the arizona desert... i was very satisfied with it's performance, it wore out the van and is now running in a ghia.
>>>I've had T1 engines go sour between here and California, and my son's last trip during the summer even cracked some 044's. On a T1, Dan.<<<<
now you are blaming the type 1 platform for obvious engine builder/owner incompetence... i know that's a fact, because my motors don't have the problems you are describing.
with regards to the 044's cracking, i have never run aftermarket heads on the street, so i can't speak for their reliability or even their relevance to this discussion.
>>>I'm curious about your discussion technique, though. Do you manage to convince many people of the merits of your arguements by insulting them?<<<
maybe people who ask for advice on public forums shouldn't lead off with wise-ass comments regarding the flat earth society
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
no, paul, i don't know that, and i haven't seen it with people who know how to build and maintain the type 1... and yes, that usually does mean a valve job sooner than if the motor was in a sedan.
i have posted before about the 1776 i ran in the bubbletop van for over 60k miles, in everything from blowing snow at mammoth to the arizona desert... i was very satisfied with it's performance, it wore out the van and is now running in a ghia.
>>>I've had T1 engines go sour between here and California, and my son's last trip during the summer even cracked some 044's. On a T1, Dan.<<<<
now you are blaming the type 1 platform for obvious engine builder/owner incompetence... i know that's a fact, because my motors don't have the problems you are describing.
with regards to the 044's cracking, i have never run aftermarket heads on the street, so i can't speak for their reliability or even their relevance to this discussion.
>>>I'm curious about your discussion technique, though. Do you manage to convince many people of the merits of your arguements by insulting them?<<<
maybe people who ask for advice on public forums shouldn't lead off with wise-ass comments regarding the flat earth society
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com