Alternative rod bearings for 2L journal

[Stripped66]

You can't run an offset bushing in the piston......

Don

Huh? The piston? I thought I said on the small-end of the rod...

[and I edited that post because I mispelled "bushing" as "pushing"]

[Type 4 Unleashed]

That's just it...I know the 46mm Rabbit journals are junk. The 48mm journals will give me two rod and bearing options, both of which have excellent bearings.

I'm just looking for feedback on how this may affect the crank. The 46mm Rabbit journals have a reputation based on experience...they weaken the crank; the 2L journals have a reputation based on the uber-poor quality bearings (and nothing else from what I've read).

See my question? There's a bit of dogma floating around that the Chevy journals are as small as you'd want to go. So, that means that the 50mm 2L journals are too small, right? Nobody can answer that because all 1st hand reports are that the 2L rod bearings are shite...crappy rod bearings cannot speak for the strength of a crank with smaller journals.

So...it looks like I am at a cross-road here. Either take a risk and do something that nobody has done (or that somebody has done but won't divulge any info on it), or weld the journals up to Chevy diameter, or sell it.

Quote: Chevy journals are as small as you'd want to go?

I, remember when they started going down to chevy jrls on the type 1, there wern't any rods made, you took a chevy rod fliped the bolts ,retanged them, and I saw where they welded the bolt heads to the cap , and everybody said it won't hold together, the jrl's are to small, the crank will come apart. Well that myth fadded.

Everything is massed produced for the type1, there really isn't a maket for the type lV, like the type 1. Not quite yet, but it is growing

I, think the benefits are there for a 2.0 jrl (1.967) and even a honda (1.888), and quad 4 (1.850).

There are now better bearing options, we just need some rods.

Maybe I'll have some made?

[Stripped66]

Quote: Chevy journals are as small as you'd want to go?

That was the dogma that I was attempting to challenge...moreso, we know Rabbit journals significantly weaken a crank (especially a Type 1), but the 2L rod journal reputation is derived solely from the poor bearings and not crank strength.

If you wanted to try running 48mm bearings (2mm undersized), you could find Eagle H-Beams built for either the Toyota 4SGTE (MR2 Turbo, turbo Celica All-Trac) or Dodge Neon 420a, both around 5.4xx" in length. The Toyota bearings are arguably better based on what's been done with the stock 3SGTE bottom end, but both rods need to be narrowed on the big-end to fit the journal. You'd need to have the journals correctly radiused for the new bearing as well.

Or, as has been mentioned, either rod could be opened up for a larger bearing. It would take 1+mm off the perimeter of the rod and cap inner diameter, but whether that would compromise rod strength, I don't know.

Now, if the Dodge SRT-4 was a 5.4xx" rod and not a 5.9" rod, I'd be whistling a different tune. These rods bolt right on, arguably do not need a change in big-end width, and are super strong. Unfortunately, building a wider (WIDER) engine with a rod ratio at 1.93 is not as attractive as one at 1.68 rod ratio.

Finally, I encourage anybody else to research this. I've already provided the specs and necessary mods to run either the 3SGTE or 420A rods, either with their stock bearings (e.g. journal mods) or modified for larger Dodge 2.2L bearings. The Dodge 2.2L rods and SRT-4 rods bolt right in (sans rod bolt flipping for clearance, if necessary); the SRT-4 were uber-attractive because they have 22mm small-ends, and I have pistons with 22mm wrist-pins...but, alas, the length is prohibitive. If anybody else could locate other suitable rod/bearing options, please post up! This info can only help the body of knowledge regarding the Type 4 engine.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Quote: Chevy journals are as small as you'd want to go?

That was the dogma that I was attempting to challenge...moreso, we know Rabbit journals significantly weaken a crank (especially a Type 1), but the 2L rod journal reputation is derived solely from the poor bearings and not crank strength.


Finally, I encourage anybody else to research this. I've already provided the specs and necessary mods to run either the 3SGTE or 420A rods, either with their stock bearings (e.g. journal mods) or modified for larger Dodge 2.2L bearings. The Dodge 2.2L rods and SRT-4 rods bolt right in (sans rod bolt flipping for clearance, if necessary); the SRT-4 were uber-attractive because they have 22mm small-ends, and I have pistons with 22mm wrist-pins...but, alas, the length is prohibitive. If anybody else could locate other suitable rod/bearing options, please post up! This info can only help the body of knowledge regarding the Type 4 engine.

The rabbit rod issue, I don't think it's all that much of an issue on type lV's, type 1's I don't know, I never asked,cause I don't play with those anymore , but the type lV crank is a little beefier than a type 1, and isn't all a 2.0 ltr crank, just a factory offset ground 1.8 crank?

I, just got back from dinner, and I asked my wife whats she gonna get me for xmas, she said nothing, I said you could buy me some new rods for my motor for xmas, she said NO, then she asked how much they were, I told her, she said NO REAL LOUD this time, then she said, she'll pay for half.

So, I guess I am gonna get those Pauter 2.0 ltr jrl rods, 5.4 length, 24mm pin, so that means I'll have to have them rebushed, for a 23.5 mm pin thats a chevy .927" pin, and have the big end resized and retanged for the dodge bearibgs.

They, will be a drop in, but I did want at the least a 5.5 rod, pistons I'am using are Ross 4.125" bore (104.8mm), .930 compression heigth, around 410g, .927 pins, I have 4 at 130g Casidium coated, another 4 at 80g Titanium, Casidium coated, crank DPR 82mm 2.0 jrl, that will make a 2828.

[Stripped66]

So, I guess I am gonna get those Pauter 2.0 ltr jrl rods, 5.4 length, 24mm pin, so that means I'll have to have them rebushed, for a 23.5 mm pin thats a chevy .927" pin, and have the big end resized and retanged for the dodge bearibgs.

I asked my wife if I could take out a loan to buy Russ' engine...she said no, too.

BTW, why not have Pauter just make the rods with the big-end already sized for the Dodge bearing and the small end bushed for the Chevy pin? I can't imagine the additional cost for custom over their pre-spec'd rods (it's not like they've got 5.4" 2L rods sitting on a shelf) would cost more than sending them out to another machine shop for the finish work.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

So, I guess I am gonna get those Pauter 2.0 ltr jrl rods, 5.4 length, 24mm pin, so that means I'll have to have them rebushed, for a 23.5 mm pin thats a chevy .927" pin, and have the big end resized and retanged for the dodge bearibgs.

I asked my wife if I could take out a loan to buy Russ' engine...she said no, too.

BTW, why not have Pauter just make the rods with the big-end already sized for the Dodge bearing and the small end bushed for the Chevy pin? I can't imagine the additional cost for custom over their pre-spec'd rods (it's not like they've got 5.4" 2L rods sitting on a shelf) would cost more than sending them out to another machine shop for the finish work.

How, many times did she say no?

Buying directly from Pauter, especially for custom, they would be over $800 plus tax, then there's the 8 to 12 week wait, and what it's gonna cost me in oil in 3 months, I started to do the math and had to stop. I've been really looking hard for a rod within these specs, to fit the 2.0 jrl, it has to be wider than a 2.0 rod, in order to size it down, to fit the jrl width, I want it to be between 5.5 to 5.6 length, and there has to be enough room in the small end to bush for a .927 pin, and also enogh meat in the bolt area, so the caps can be drilled and taped for cap screws. and close enough in bore size to resize to the 2.0 bearing, or now the Dodge bearing.

So, the Pauter 5.4 rod is a quick fix, it's available now, it needs a couple mods, it's a little shorter than I wanted, but it will work I could have it together and in, in 2 weeks.

But, I still would like to get ahold of a 924 rod, It's 1.098" wide, big end bore of 2.032", small end is .945", length of 5.670.

I, would prefer 5.670 over the 5.4, just cause of rod angle, the longer rod would have less angle, giving you a little more clearance for the cam.

It's not decided till the fat lady sings.

[Santas Brother]

.930 compression height is pretty short for a chevy.
That is the stock bore in a 400,I'm guessing those pistons
are for 6" rods in a 400 sbc ? Do you have a part number ?

What are you running for barrels and heads ?

And how much room are you going to have for a cam ?

Thanks.

Ian

,

They, will be a drop in, but I did want at the least a 5.5 rod, pistons I'am using are Ross 4.125" bore (104.8mm), .930 compression heigth, around 410g, .927 pins, I have 4 at 130g Casidium coated, another 4 at 80g Titanium, Casidium coated, crank DPR 82mm 2.0 jrl, that will make a 2828.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

.930 compression height is pretty short for a chevy.
That is the stock bore in a 400,I'm guessing those pistons
are for 6" rods in a 400 sbc ? Do you have a part number ?

What are you running for barrels and heads ?

And how much room are you going to have for a cam ?

Thanks.

Ian

,

They, will be a drop in, but I did want at the least a 5.5 rod, pistons I'am using are Ross 4.125" bore (104.8mm), .930 compression heigth, around 410g, .927 pins, I have 4 at 130g Casidium coated, another 4 at 80g Titanium, Casidium coated, crank DPR 82mm 2.0 jrl, that will make a 2828.

Hi Ian.

Yea, .930 is a short CH, that was why I bought them, they were a custom set made by Ross Pistons, got them on EBAY, the rod and crank combo for these pistons, is anybodys guess, sorry no part #, I've taken them to Ross, had a pin fit done, along with questions. The reason I wanted this CH is due to stroke and rod lengths, I have 8 pistons, the seond set of 4"s I am saving for the 88mm or 90mm crank, when I find one

Barrels, just cast iron barrels, heads I am still working out the particulars, base heads are 2.0, I havn't decided if I'am going Titanium or not, Valves will be around 50 x 40, springs, I am currently useing Howard cams 1.250" (Single with Damper, Damper removed, they break), I was able to install these at 1.800" installed heigth, I took .100" out of the spring seat, and I used a set of Gene Berg ChroMoly retainers, that gave me an additional .200" installed heigth, but with the Berg retainers you have to run the 911 adjusters, and you have to shim and or clearance the rockers and stands to center the adjusters on the valve's.
And, with the spring and retainer combo I chose, valve length, stayed stock, and the rocker geo, was a piece of cake

The cam, I won't know about untill I choose a rod and mock it up, but I am going to try to get a total valve lift of over .600", I have a set of Pauter Rockers, so I will have to see what size lobe I can get to clear, and I will try my best to keep the base circle, stock, due to the spring pressure I will be running, probally around 400# over the nose, I am currently running around 350# over the nose, and The cams gone over 25,000 miles, and I tore the motor down after 20,000 miles, and the cam looked beautiful.

Hope, my experience helps out, be glad to answer anybody's questions, my car, 914 73 2.0, factory front and rear sway bars, fiberglass flares, 16 x 8 and 9's Ronal R9's , current engine, 75 x 105.7 (2632) 48 DRLA's cam 533 lift, 318 dur, 281 at .050".

Richard

[Eddie Brown]

Richard, it was great meeting you over at European. I hope to pick your brain more as get into working on the 914.

Take care,

Eddie.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Richard, it was great meeting you over at European. I hope to pick your brain more as get into working on the 914.

Take care,

Eddie.

Hi Eddie

Eddie I started a new thread, this reply was to much of a Hijack

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=94931

Hey Eddie, disreguard this link, the Post, instead of maybe moving it, it was deleted.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Quote: Chevy journals are as small as you'd want to go?

That was the dogma that I was attempting to challenge...moreso, we know Rabbit journals significantly weaken a crank (especially a Type 1), but the 2L rod journal reputation is derived solely from the poor bearings and not crank strength.


Finally, I encourage anybody else to research this. I've already provided the specs and necessary mods to run either the 3SGTE or 420A rods, either with their stock bearings (e.g. journal mods) or modified for larger Dodge 2.2L bearings. The Dodge 2.2L rods and SRT-4 rods bolt right in (sans rod bolt flipping for clearance, if necessary); the SRT-4 were uber-attractive because they have 22mm small-ends, and I have pistons with 22mm wrist-pins...but, alas, the length is prohibitive. If anybody else could locate other suitable rod/bearing options, please post up! This info can only help the body of knowledge regarding the Type 4 engine.

The rabbit rod issue, I don't think it's all that much of an issue on type lV's, type 1's I don't know, I never asked,cause I don't play with those anymore , but the type lV crank is a little beefier than a type 1, and isn't all a 2.0 ltr crank, just a factory offset ground 1.8 crank?

I, just got back from dinner, and I asked my wife whats she gonna get me for xmas, she said nothing, I said you could buy me some new rods for my motor for xmas, she said NO, then she asked how much they were, I told her, she said NO REAL LOUD this time, then she said, she'll pay for half.

So, I guess I am gonna get those Pauter 2.0 ltr jrl rods, 5.4 length, 24mm pin, so that means I'll have to have them rebushed, for a 23.5 mm pin thats a chevy .927" pin, and have the big end resized and retanged for the dodge bearibgs.

They, will be a drop in, but I did want at the least a 5.5 rod, pistons I'am using are Ross 4.125" bore (104.8mm), .930 compression heigth, around 410g, .927 pins, I have 4 at 130g Casidium coated, another 4 at 80g Titanium, Casidium coated, crank DPR 82mm 2.0 jrl, that will make a 2828.

Well, I had the chance, and didn't take it, went back, but the Pauter rods were gone, somebody jumped on them.Back to looking

[Santas Brother]

How does the outside to outside dimension
(across the big end) compare between the
Toyota and Chevy rods ?

Any chance the big end of Toyota rod
could be opened up to accept the Chevy bearings ?

Thanks.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

How does the outside to outside dimension
(across the big end) compare between the
Toyota and Chevy rods ?

Any chance the big end of Toyota rod
could be opened up to accept the Chevy bearings ?

Thanks.

I, don't have the Toyota rods close by, but I remember them having a smaller out side dia. , but there's not enough room to open up for Chevy bearings, I probally pushed the limit, when I opened them up to fit the Dodge bearing, 2.086", where the Chevy is 2.125".

Sorry

[Santas Brother]

Did anyone ever get ahold of a 924 Porsche rod ?

[Santas Brother]

You have a PM.

Right now I am looking for a 924 rod, it's a little longer than I wanted, but I need to see if the big end will work, and it may trake your bearing option