TI Cooling system test, Week one in review
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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A_67vdub
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Seeing the data for the centermount fan interests me. It leads me to believe that the air coming out of the fan is NOT leaving in a line perpendicular to the edge of the fan. My guess would be that the momentum from the spinning fan is pushing the air in a clockwise angle, which is pushing the air on the left side directly into the shroud, while the right side is being pushed directly down into the cylinders. Does your centermount fan have veins?
Jake, have you spun the fan in the shroud without an engine under it? It seems that with those temperature differences you're getting, you'd probably be able to feel the difference just by holding your hand underneath it.
Just a thought.
Steve
Jake, have you spun the fan in the shroud without an engine under it? It seems that with those temperature differences you're getting, you'd probably be able to feel the difference just by holding your hand underneath it.
Just a thought.
Steve
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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The fan location in the center mount IS the issue. It leaves the right side even further open for all the air to travel that way, just like IT ALWAYS WILL and has in every test we have done. Since the resistance on 3-4 is higher the pressure tends to lean toward 1-2 even more. The center mount had the coolest 1-2 temps we have seen so far, but just look at those splits. These graphs don't lie- data is as solid as a rock!
VW was smart enough to rob that air for the oil cooler housing on the doghouse shrouds.When THEY did it it also increased the temperature of 1-2. The way we are going to do it we can keep 1-2 the same temp that we have now, but drop 3-4 to the same level, thus creating a cooler overall engine temperature. The tests with these other systems have helped me to see what we can do with our system for sure.
The centermount is what it is, from what I can see it would take re invention of the wheel to make it anything else. The DTM is wort that, but not one of these..
Wait till you see how we are gonna do this, it will blow your mind!! It already has blown mine...
After all this I'm just sitting here waiting for someone to argue with me, that will be world war 3,4,5 &6!
VW was smart enough to rob that air for the oil cooler housing on the doghouse shrouds.When THEY did it it also increased the temperature of 1-2. The way we are going to do it we can keep 1-2 the same temp that we have now, but drop 3-4 to the same level, thus creating a cooler overall engine temperature. The tests with these other systems have helped me to see what we can do with our system for sure.
The centermount is what it is, from what I can see it would take re invention of the wheel to make it anything else. The DTM is wort that, but not one of these..
Wait till you see how we are gonna do this, it will blow your mind!! It already has blown mine...
After all this I'm just sitting here waiting for someone to argue with me, that will be world war 3,4,5 &6!
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DudeAndHisBus
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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A_67vdub
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I hope you don't think my post was arguing with you.
I was just saying that I always *guessed* that a centermounted fan would have been more even because of the symmetricalness (is that a word?) of it. This is just one of the many reasons why I appreciate all the work you're doing, it puts many common misconseptions to rest.
Steve
I was just saying that I always *guessed* that a centermounted fan would have been more even because of the symmetricalness (is that a word?) of it. This is just one of the many reasons why I appreciate all the work you're doing, it puts many common misconseptions to rest.
Steve
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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Thorkhild
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did you do any tests with the 36'er styled doghouse shrouds that are on the market? I have one, and like the look but would much rather have function! (newly acquired project)
how bout a type 3 test? stock cooling. everyome says that the T3s don't cool as well, it would be nice to know for sure either way. or is that asking too much
how bout a type 3 test? stock cooling. everyome says that the T3s don't cool as well, it would be nice to know for sure either way. or is that asking too much
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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Type 5 Joe
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Jake,
I'm not trying to be negative here, so don't take it that way...
Why don't you run a test / show a graph for the stock Doghouse with the Flaps / Thermostat.
Everyone knows that this is the way they are designed to be run... and the only way I set-up my motors.
I would be interested in your findings.
Thanks, - Joe
I'm not trying to be negative here, so don't take it that way...
Why don't you run a test / show a graph for the stock Doghouse with the Flaps / Thermostat.
Everyone knows that this is the way they are designed to be run... and the only way I set-up my motors.
I would be interested in your findings.
Thanks, - Joe
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farmer
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Just a thought.
Looking at the graphs from the centermount and the DTM run, we see that 1&2 is running much colder.
In theory that also means that the engine CAN digest and use MORE cooling air than the equal of what the stock fan can provide. Am I right ?
That leads us against the Gol and the Porsche fan systems again. Only they provide too much air, and not even enough as we know it.
On the other hand. If there is a way to improove the output and distribution of air evenly with the DTM housing, without it getting too complicated, that would be an advantage.
T.
Looking at the graphs from the centermount and the DTM run, we see that 1&2 is running much colder.
In theory that also means that the engine CAN digest and use MORE cooling air than the equal of what the stock fan can provide. Am I right ?
That leads us against the Gol and the Porsche fan systems again. Only they provide too much air, and not even enough as we know it.
On the other hand. If there is a way to improove the output and distribution of air evenly with the DTM housing, without it getting too complicated, that would be an advantage.
T.
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mharney
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This is my theory:
The main problems are:
1.) distribution
2.) retaining laminar flow as much as possible
3.) volume
4.) direction
Distribution - You have to get the air flow (net laminar) even across the 4 zones. It's all about the vanes, which basically tame and direct the air flow. They're designed to do it within a specific range, and anything above that can exceed the design.
Retaining laminar flow - look at the way the stock type fan pushes air out in a series of linear columns. This makes it easier to get the air flow uniform, not swirling, boiling, etc. The porsche style fans are pushing a LOT of air, yes, but the way it hits the cylinders on these shroud designs, it is still tumbling, spinning, etc, and causing reduction in laminar flow, and making it harder to control direction.
Volume - this has a maximum at 1 bar atm through a given cross sectional area, and anything above it will result in velocities that break laminar boundaries and start into turbulent flow, which for cooling is bad.
Direction - air incident on the cooling fins must hit them as straight on as possible to keep consistent contact with the fins.
All these things have some interdependence and effect on one another. The VW engineers were not stupid, obviously, and found a way to make it work given their other design considerations and constraints. I am sure that NO ONE that has created an aftermarket solution has spent as much time and energy researching this, with the possible exception of Joe L. Since I do not have hard facts on who did how much work though, I cannot substantiate that. I know from looking at the way the DTM is made, Joe was a genius when it came to this.
I look forward to seeing your progress on the T1 DTM, Jake. I want to tell you that your efforts are basically priceless, and we all appreciate and will benefit from it. I know you intend to make money off your efforts (nothing we do is ever completely selfless) but I also know that you intend to disspell myth and replace it with hard numbers, which we also appreciate. Thanks Jake.
The main problems are:
1.) distribution
2.) retaining laminar flow as much as possible
3.) volume
4.) direction
Distribution - You have to get the air flow (net laminar) even across the 4 zones. It's all about the vanes, which basically tame and direct the air flow. They're designed to do it within a specific range, and anything above that can exceed the design.
Retaining laminar flow - look at the way the stock type fan pushes air out in a series of linear columns. This makes it easier to get the air flow uniform, not swirling, boiling, etc. The porsche style fans are pushing a LOT of air, yes, but the way it hits the cylinders on these shroud designs, it is still tumbling, spinning, etc, and causing reduction in laminar flow, and making it harder to control direction.
Volume - this has a maximum at 1 bar atm through a given cross sectional area, and anything above it will result in velocities that break laminar boundaries and start into turbulent flow, which for cooling is bad.
Direction - air incident on the cooling fins must hit them as straight on as possible to keep consistent contact with the fins.
All these things have some interdependence and effect on one another. The VW engineers were not stupid, obviously, and found a way to make it work given their other design considerations and constraints. I am sure that NO ONE that has created an aftermarket solution has spent as much time and energy researching this, with the possible exception of Joe L. Since I do not have hard facts on who did how much work though, I cannot substantiate that. I know from looking at the way the DTM is made, Joe was a genius when it came to this.
I look forward to seeing your progress on the T1 DTM, Jake. I want to tell you that your efforts are basically priceless, and we all appreciate and will benefit from it. I know you intend to make money off your efforts (nothing we do is ever completely selfless) but I also know that you intend to disspell myth and replace it with hard numbers, which we also appreciate. Thanks Jake.
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Joe vw
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The best solution for even cooling would seem to be twin type1 style fans spinning in opposite directions in a partitioned fan housing with DTM offset. Driven by a serpentine belt using the backside to drive the left fan. Of coarse the left fan would have opposite pitch on the blades. Using a remote oil cooler or a cooler that robs a little from each fan.
Allright Jake, start building.
Allright Jake, start building.