Aircooled wbx heads

[Wally]

Just 'scored' a nice set of used Limbach heads. No cracks, just needs some new guides. Costed me 250 euro + 20 euro shipping from Austria. 250 euro is about $ 300,-- with the current exch. rate.

Wbx stud spacing, twin spark plug location, but only one plug is used in my heads, the other plug boss is undrilled.
Stock head opening (register) is about 107mm, but 110mm should be possible, so a bore of 100mm seems a very real option!

Greetings,
Walter

[roo]

wally its great to see someone thinking outside the box. 10 years ago being able to share info like this across the pond would have been near impossible. if only a new set of those heads were $300. by the way why are they so high priced. i realize they are for aircraft use but when you can cast a set of 044 heads for under $150 why are some of the more 'exotic' heads like these so pricey. are we paying for research and development? it would sure make our small community faster if a newer 044 style head like these was available with bigger bore sizes. maybe CB or someone will take notice of this market sometime soon. i still think a hi-po head with extra fins and street cooling characterteristics is needed as the T4 croud needs a head like this and the wasserboxer case's potential can't be realized until bigger bores can run on the street. maybe a single mold machinable to both applications. jake heads have been put on hold for at least a little while. maybe thats the answer but still a ways away.

[Farmer out of town]

Hi guys.
As I see it there are two problems with the Limbach heads.
1. there is not enough material to really do a good port and polish. You can make a 40 mm size intake valve flow good, and that´s it !
2. 97 mm bore is the absolute max bore they would hold. They are basicly - still - VW heads. And there is not enought streng´th in them to handle a 100 mm bore.

The GWD units are typically 2316CC. They normally provide about 160 hp and a good wide torque band, and are quite agressive in the upper rpms too, due to the agressive cam used..

They are most likely very durable due to the good cylinders if they are nickies type.
IMHO it is a better and cheaper option to have say DPR to stroke a stock crank to 84 mm or even 86, with chevy/buick rod dia. modify the case for t1 bolt pattern and then be able to use "off the shelf" fast heads instead.
More power for your money.
But a 044 type or C/E heads with the WBX pattern would be a great asset.
Torben

[Piledriver]

I think the cooling is the issue---None of the typical "fast" heads have any fin area to speak of.

Water cooled WBX heads might be a good start, but I don't know how fat one can go wit the ports.

[Guest]

DPR said they would only do an 82mm Wasser Crank... unless they have changed their mind.

Large ports are for top-end Performance... and remove torque from the bottom.

I would go bigger stroke - Scat / Berg Crank, before I went beyond 94mm bore

A 2110, or a 2332 with C.B. Heads (Type I) would rovide more power than alot of folks could handle (and built bug trannies too).

Like I've said before.... build a Conventional Oxy motor, alot to be learned there alone.

You would probably decide to do another one with Type I parts, more radical yet....

The Limbach heads would be nice... but hard to get / expensive $$$

If your going to contemplate Wasser heads... you might as well go with a Wasser. Either way, the heads are expensive to modify for extreme valve spring pressure / valve lift.

My modified Wasser heads start at $1300.00 / pair.... Trick valves, guides, springs, retainers, off-set rockershafts. Woxy or Wasser, this kind of work is needed for these heads.

The ports in the Wasser heads work / flow well.... but if your going to run a radiator, you should just go Wasser.

- Joe

[Type 5 Joe]

That was me posting above... Damn automatic Log-on.

[roo]

i can agree that a 2332 with hot cam and cb or equivelent heads is more than most will need. however a streetable 2.5-2.7 liter would require a much lower state of tune and provide more streetable torque while still being just as fast at the strip not to mention much more reliable and tame. most people would rather have big block streetable power instead of peaky power. look at the T4 croud. i'm convinced an aftermarket head that allows bigger bores on the street is needed. yeah you can build a big T4 for this but at what cost and your still using stock ported heads. with wally's 100 mm porsche nickies and bolt on heads for either T4 or wasser case more reliability not to mention power could be achieved for essentially the same cost as a 2332. another question for you guys. why don't the aftermarket heads all have at LEAST stock finnage? it may be cheaper but why not just put them on for the sake of more cooling. doesn't make sense to retool for a new head at reduce its cooling characteristics.

[Guest]

Remember.... The bore and stroke are relative.

Anything with a 100mm + Bore matched to a 76 - stroke will drive like a 1914 cc, Just bigger... The driving Characteristics will be about the same.

A motor with a large stroke compared to the bore is going to be a torque monster, with the right Cam / heads / Carbs / intakes / exhaust.

I would go for the largest Stroke I could fit in the thing, to match up to those big cylinders....

C.B.'s 044's are basically stock in Design (cooling) Pretty Close. Some of these heads are being ported to out-perform their Street Eliminator series.

Moving up to a Nickaseal / Biral Cylinder is a great Idea.... The 94's need to be Nickies. But how many people have the $$$ to step up?

I think it's a really good Idea, but I would max out the stroke 1st.

- Joe

[roo]

one thing you have to remember is that T4 motors are mostly all very oversquare and almost always torquey. intake/exhaust port and cam confuguration play a bigger role than how over/undersquare the motor is. our motors can compensate for more or less less stroke with rod ratios much more easily than any v8 can. in my own opinion the true potential of the wasser case won't be realized until bigger bores can be used. porsche 100-102 nickies and cheaper bolt on heads are the only way i can see that happening within reasonable budget. with the nickies and bolt on heads much more streetable horsepower would be available. motors would last much longer in the bigger configuration with less tune. tranny's on the otherhand. i agree with you totally but i think eventually someone will have to make a head to fit these needs. how long off that is is questionable.

[Wally]

wally its great to see someone thinking outside the box. 10 years ago being able to share info like this across the pond would have been near impossible.

Thanks Roo,
Tho Thorben does have a point with the max valve size possibilities: The benefits of i.e. the Eliminator heads is that they have a wider valve spacing, allowing larger valves in big bore heads. Stockish based heads, which the Limbach head looks like, have the stock valve geometry with its limitations as to max valve size.

But then again, I also pursue this as Joe often stated: look at the type 5 as an relative inexpensive motor due to the many stock wbx or type 1 parts you can use.
Therefore, I don't want to max out with 84 - 88 stroke that the wbx case is capable of, but use stock Porsche p/c and stock wbx crank (76mm). The combo will probably not be ideal in configuration, but it will damn be cheap power

Take care,
Walter

[roo]

wally do you think the nickies would soak up enough heat to run the comp eliminators on the street? i've probably asked you this before. would be scary cheap power depending on cost of p/c and head mods for bolt pattern.

[Wally]

wally do you think the nickies would soak up enough heat to run the comp eliminators on the street? i've probably asked you this before. would be scary cheap power depending on cost of p/c and head mods for bolt pattern.

Don't know, but the question is hypothetical: Comp.Eliminators don't exist with wbx stud spacing...
Besides, I think you need all the cooling you can get. Even Street Elim have critical finnage for really street driving IMHO. Plus the finnage on the Porsche p/c is not much either. That does however help clear them side by side on the motor, because the 116mm (?) bore spacing is close anyway.
Walter

[roo]

i was just wondering because i heard it through the grapevine that the comp elims have enough meat to for a 4" bore and can be redrilled for wasser pattern. i hate saying this as i'm not sure maybe someone else can chime in and correct me.

[Wolfvan88]

Limbach liquid cooled cylinder heads are not true WBX - look at the location of the exhaust port stud locations. They are T1 location. WBX is opposite. Head is patterned after WBX but T1 style. Good for using T1 exhausts though...

This is why they cost $$$$$$ They are custom made for aircraft use...

[Wally]

[quote="Wolfvan88"]Limbach liquid cooled cylinder heads are not true WBX -

quote]
Thanks for the info Wolf, but we are solely talking aircooled heads here and I am only describing my Limbach AIRCOOLED heads, so I don't quite understand where you're coming from...

Take care,
Walter