Let us beat this to death again...
As you have seen in this thread, there are several options, each having their own ups and downs, which have been fairly well covered.
I have in mind a reliable daily driver, high power motors that will last ~100K miles, that I wouldn't hesitate to drive to Florida in tomorrow.
Also very capable of doing a bit of Rice hunting, or possibly for horses as well.
In my mind, my prefs are:
T4
WBX
Suby
other
In that order.
I don't consider a T5, as I feel a T1 cooling system to be inadequate for Texas on a highly modified engine.(fin area limited, esp with HiPo heads) If I was build in a weekend warrior, I would consider it strongly, perhaps even with Modified WBX head in an air/water cooled hybrid with a small radiator. 101.6x84 perhaps.
Summary:
T4 cons: exhaust & fanhousing in the way, so if you want a turbo&/or EFI in a bug, all custom intake and exhaust plumbing. Parts relatively expensive vs T1, but you get what you pay for.
Pros: Bolts in. Very simple conversion, good cooling available. Works awesome NA. and not terribly expensive if almost stock, <150HP.
WBX cons: Water cooled, must add radiator etc.
Pros: Takes many T1 parts (cam, rockers,rods) Bug exhausts will work, simple mod. EFI from factory works, and plumbing 100% usable for turbo/aftermarket. Water cooled, good for turbo, heads stay sealed under boost. Stock 2.1 motor with 1.4 rockers and a chip/exhaust can make ~140 HP. Blown can make >300HP on stock internals, supposedly, main weakness is rods, but aftermarket T1 rods fit perfectly. Room for AC and turbo+intercooler.
Suby: Cons: Requires adaptor plate, flywheel. Requires radiator etc. Needs some custom exhaust work, not too hard though. Requires body clearancing for those 2 cam heads.
Pro:150HP NA,-->300HP blown from the factory. Factory plumbing all fits. Can be had complete for the cost of having a set of 2.0 Porsche T4 heads "done" right, or less than just a (very) nice T4 exhaust system. Modified easily, can make enogh power to shred transmissions at will. 915 Porsche tranny suggested >250HP. Room for AC and turbo+intercooler.
Type 4 vs Subie vs Rotory? Bang for buck reliable power?
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Piledriver
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Mysticle31
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Perfect, that is exactly what I needed. Thank you. Now I've just got to figure out how to build a T4 to match my MK2 VR6 with coraddo gearing. (won't want to go much faster anyway. Not looking to build a race car here, just a kickass street car)
13.8 in the quarter @ 105mph. Never did 0-60. It will say byee to mustang gt's, integra gsrs, MK3 VR6's..etc on the track straights. 70-100. all the way to 120 (fast as I've been). Oh, the engine is chiped, portmatched intake, custom exhaust and the car is striped. two Recaros, a dash, a front carpet and a radio. (not interested in doing that to the SB)
It's comparable to my buddies B18 CRX. I'd like to make something comarable in the SB (geting tired of FWD)
13.8 in the quarter @ 105mph. Never did 0-60. It will say byee to mustang gt's, integra gsrs, MK3 VR6's..etc on the track straights. 70-100. all the way to 120 (fast as I've been). Oh, the engine is chiped, portmatched intake, custom exhaust and the car is striped. two Recaros, a dash, a front carpet and a radio. (not interested in doing that to the SB)
It's comparable to my buddies B18 CRX. I'd like to make something comarable in the SB (geting tired of FWD)
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Piledriver
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You need to hang at the Type4um. This "conversion perversion" has its OWN forum.
Did this with my son last year: I'd do the following based on what I have learned since---
1)Plan on spending 3-4 grand. Maybe a bit more, depending on what you want. If you get anything wrong, it could be much more.
It WILL cost more than you think.
2) If you HAVE the money, just buy a turnkey motor from RAT. Bolt it in you car and it's done. Worry about something else, and spend your time driving.
In many reported cases, RAT would have been the CHEAP method as well.
2056 44x40 heads KB pistons 163/86C webcam ~9.4:1 CR, the stock 2.0 rods are boat anchors, but strong, get ARP bolts, stock crank/rods OK to ~6500RPM, 44 webers or dells... Get Jake to balance the rig.
My son bought a CW crank, but chose to run the 2.0 rods... limiting him to ~6500-7k, but the cam runs out of steam there anyway.
If you want VW aftermarket rods (lighter AND stronger) go 96x76, have to ask around for the right piston/spacer combo, easy clearancing etc.
With H-beams, dual springs, ceramic lifters and Johns pushrods, one could probably see the far side of 8k with a different cam, but look for reduced life, far less drivable on the street etc.
I strongly suggest the ceramic lifters regardless. Cheap insurance.
(I can say that, I am the wiped cam poster child, 2 builds in a row)
Based on Jakes latest reports, look for square port heads and stubs.. AMC makes good castings, but their machining leaves much to be desired.
The exhaust is the only headache, we made our own from some FAT HX repacement pipes and an old 914 header, grafted together, seems to work OK... There are FAR better examples I'm sure.
Or one could spend some money and buy a REAL exhaust.
A DTM for cooling. Get the pulley/gen stand/whole shot. Anything else is eye candy, doesn't cool perfectly, wastes power, or all of the above.
My son has yet to run his `71 SB at the track, but with the 091 trans/solid mount/kafer brace it launches like a pro. mid-hi 13 second seems _very_ plausible... It gets it OK with the T1 tranny, but it HAULS with the 091.
(gearing works well with the cam)
It does sound like riding inside a weedeater tho, the bus trans on solid mounts is very noisy---I think Berg $ells urethane mount for this swap. A 901 tranny from a early 911 might be a better plan for general use, but the bus tranny is FAR better for stoplight fun, a 901 would die an ugly death at the strip.(first gear was an afterthought IMHO)
Did this with my son last year: I'd do the following based on what I have learned since---
1)Plan on spending 3-4 grand. Maybe a bit more, depending on what you want. If you get anything wrong, it could be much more.
It WILL cost more than you think.
2) If you HAVE the money, just buy a turnkey motor from RAT. Bolt it in you car and it's done. Worry about something else, and spend your time driving.
In many reported cases, RAT would have been the CHEAP method as well.
2056 44x40 heads KB pistons 163/86C webcam ~9.4:1 CR, the stock 2.0 rods are boat anchors, but strong, get ARP bolts, stock crank/rods OK to ~6500RPM, 44 webers or dells... Get Jake to balance the rig.
My son bought a CW crank, but chose to run the 2.0 rods... limiting him to ~6500-7k, but the cam runs out of steam there anyway.
If you want VW aftermarket rods (lighter AND stronger) go 96x76, have to ask around for the right piston/spacer combo, easy clearancing etc.
With H-beams, dual springs, ceramic lifters and Johns pushrods, one could probably see the far side of 8k with a different cam, but look for reduced life, far less drivable on the street etc.
I strongly suggest the ceramic lifters regardless. Cheap insurance.
(I can say that, I am the wiped cam poster child, 2 builds in a row)
Based on Jakes latest reports, look for square port heads and stubs.. AMC makes good castings, but their machining leaves much to be desired.
The exhaust is the only headache, we made our own from some FAT HX repacement pipes and an old 914 header, grafted together, seems to work OK... There are FAR better examples I'm sure.
Or one could spend some money and buy a REAL exhaust.
A DTM for cooling. Get the pulley/gen stand/whole shot. Anything else is eye candy, doesn't cool perfectly, wastes power, or all of the above.
My son has yet to run his `71 SB at the track, but with the 091 trans/solid mount/kafer brace it launches like a pro. mid-hi 13 second seems _very_ plausible... It gets it OK with the T1 tranny, but it HAULS with the 091.
(gearing works well with the cam)
It does sound like riding inside a weedeater tho, the bus trans on solid mounts is very noisy---I think Berg $ells urethane mount for this swap. A 901 tranny from a early 911 might be a better plan for general use, but the bus tranny is FAR better for stoplight fun, a 901 would die an ugly death at the strip.(first gear was an afterthought IMHO)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Mysticle31
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Doesn't the bus trans have that REALLY LOW first gear? What are the gear spacing on it?
So your saing I don't even need a 2270 to hit high 13s (basically to match my MK2 vr6, the times is only a refrence. The car would just blast past others on the track (MK3 VR6, GSRs, I was even with an NSX and my friend in the Honda B18.) And on the street I launched on a corvette onece. I should have had the car on a dyno and a scale so I could get power to weight. It was port matched, chiped, exhaust, rebuilt head (stock), Coraddo tranny all in a 1991 Jetta.
So your saing I don't even need a 2270 to hit high 13s (basically to match my MK2 vr6, the times is only a refrence. The car would just blast past others on the track (MK3 VR6, GSRs, I was even with an NSX and my friend in the Honda B18.) And on the street I launched on a corvette onece. I should have had the car on a dyno and a scale so I could get power to weight. It was port matched, chiped, exhaust, rebuilt head (stock), Coraddo tranny all in a 1991 Jetta.
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Piledriver
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60 ft is everything, and the 5.37 (IIRC) final drive doesn't hurt.
The 163/86c has a nice, wide powerband...
The low first is really not an issue, seems a very real benefit for launch. I don't know what the 1/2/3/4 gearing is offhand.
And IIRC a 96x76 is WAY easier to build vs a 2270 (96x78.4), and gives up very little.
(less spacer/little clearancing etc)
I think that is what Jake builds for powerstokes now... the 78.4 stroke with VW T1 jounrals (for crank strength) is too much of a PITA.
(Much clearancing, reduced base circle cam, etc)
As I said, he hasn't run the car at the strip yet, but when in racing trim (not carrying ladders and 400 lbs of junk) it seems like it could go sub 14 seconds. If it doesn't do 14s first time out I will be shocked. It moves harder of the line than anything I've driven in ages. We'll supposedly be doing the 1/8th mile strip in Denton in a few weeks... we'll see if he gets around to it.
...It basically goes like hell until you hit ~100, and then I want to get out, as Beetles really dream of flying...
He has 195/65s mounted in back, almost exactly stock dia, 70 runs ~4K rpm in 4th, like in a bus (shocking) It's a bit buzzy. OTOH, it'll clear 100 in third, or 4th, real quick from 70... No downshift needed really.
(Altho the SB seems quite stable at >100, unlike a standard.
(7/8" front sway bar/dropped/fat tires/f&R braces probably helped))
His motor could have been a bit better, he has cast Low compression 94s, too low compression, and we have considered hacking in an auto to assist launch/reliability/consistency.
(It was SUPPOSED to be a stock rebuild, and morphed from there, sometimes without my input---goals change... plan ahead.)
2 wiped cams gave too much opprotunity to change his mind...
After the second, the heads got big valves and dual springs, and the Web went in. Vroom.
IIRC, for effective "racing" use the 091 bus trans needs some T1 parts to shift fast ... An auto (have MIG welder and sawzall) might be a good plan.
The 163/86c has a nice, wide powerband...
The low first is really not an issue, seems a very real benefit for launch. I don't know what the 1/2/3/4 gearing is offhand.
And IIRC a 96x76 is WAY easier to build vs a 2270 (96x78.4), and gives up very little.
(less spacer/little clearancing etc)
I think that is what Jake builds for powerstokes now... the 78.4 stroke with VW T1 jounrals (for crank strength) is too much of a PITA.
(Much clearancing, reduced base circle cam, etc)
As I said, he hasn't run the car at the strip yet, but when in racing trim (not carrying ladders and 400 lbs of junk) it seems like it could go sub 14 seconds. If it doesn't do 14s first time out I will be shocked. It moves harder of the line than anything I've driven in ages. We'll supposedly be doing the 1/8th mile strip in Denton in a few weeks... we'll see if he gets around to it.
...It basically goes like hell until you hit ~100, and then I want to get out, as Beetles really dream of flying...
He has 195/65s mounted in back, almost exactly stock dia, 70 runs ~4K rpm in 4th, like in a bus (shocking) It's a bit buzzy. OTOH, it'll clear 100 in third, or 4th, real quick from 70... No downshift needed really.
(Altho the SB seems quite stable at >100, unlike a standard.
(7/8" front sway bar/dropped/fat tires/f&R braces probably helped))
His motor could have been a bit better, he has cast Low compression 94s, too low compression, and we have considered hacking in an auto to assist launch/reliability/consistency.
(It was SUPPOSED to be a stock rebuild, and morphed from there, sometimes without my input---goals change... plan ahead.)
2 wiped cams gave too much opprotunity to change his mind...
After the second, the heads got big valves and dual springs, and the Web went in. Vroom.
IIRC, for effective "racing" use the 091 bus trans needs some T1 parts to shift fast ... An auto (have MIG welder and sawzall) might be a good plan.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Mysticle31
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Piledriver
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There's a huge aftermarket for gear sets/spools/etc for these, you could buy one with HD mods preinstalled, with any gearing you like if you have the bucks. Ther are also aftermarket transmissions. (mendeola)
I thought the stock gearing was a reasonable compromise, but if you want to RACE, you may feel otherwise.
The automatic ratios are pretty good, and the shifting is consistent.
Survey says the auto is good to 500 HP, stock. YMMV.
I thought the stock gearing was a reasonable compromise, but if you want to RACE, you may feel otherwise.
The automatic ratios are pretty good, and the shifting is consistent.
Survey says the auto is good to 500 HP, stock. YMMV.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Mysticle31
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:06 pm
Where can I find gear ratios for these trannys?
I'm looking for something to produce power. But the accel has to be massive to pass people on the freeway, 30-50, good 0-60..etc.
I was riding in my friends BMW 325is and he passes a truck on the freeway, so he downshifts to 4th and mosies on by. I asked him why not 3rd and he said he'd hit the rev limiter. (at 65, 70 mph!?)
In my VR6 (the car I'm trying to match or exceed) I can shift to 3rd and take that all the way to 101 (gear ratio chart). On the track, Mustang GTs, GSRs, Type Rs.. coudn't get me at those speads. (fastest I ever went was 120) I never tried the "greats" NSX, Corvetts..etc.
Got to have access to peak power anytime, say up to 100 (seems to be a nice place to stop, never go that fast on the street!) I don't know on 4 speeds how aquard the 3 to 4 shift is? In my VR6 jetta with the Coraddo tranny 4th is a town crusing gear. I do my accel on the freeway and put it in 5th. In town crusing is 4th. Not used much.
I'm looking for something to produce power. But the accel has to be massive to pass people on the freeway, 30-50, good 0-60..etc.
I was riding in my friends BMW 325is and he passes a truck on the freeway, so he downshifts to 4th and mosies on by. I asked him why not 3rd and he said he'd hit the rev limiter. (at 65, 70 mph!?)
In my VR6 (the car I'm trying to match or exceed) I can shift to 3rd and take that all the way to 101 (gear ratio chart). On the track, Mustang GTs, GSRs, Type Rs.. coudn't get me at those speads. (fastest I ever went was 120) I never tried the "greats" NSX, Corvetts..etc.
Got to have access to peak power anytime, say up to 100 (seems to be a nice place to stop, never go that fast on the street!) I don't know on 4 speeds how aquard the 3 to 4 shift is? In my VR6 jetta with the Coraddo tranny 4th is a town crusing gear. I do my accel on the freeway and put it in 5th. In town crusing is 4th. Not used much.
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Piledriver
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I don't know the 091 ratios, but at 100 MPH, third is not done by the rev limiter... 6500 rpm, set by repeated tweaking on the bosch rotor.
If he had non stock rods, I would have set it to ~7500.
There is also NO need to downshift at 70mph in 4th, ~4K, a T4 with that cam produces a wonderful "punch it anywhere" powerband, and youll see 70>100 in a few seconds, in 4th. Just even more violently in third. You could roll on most cars with no downshift, IMHO. All engine.
(BTW, VERY unlike a stock VR6 anyway, I drove my daugter-in-laws VR6 Jetta, you can actually make it _really_ git if you drive it _just_ right...
My son commented it "took him awhile" to figure out how to drive it... He hated it at first...They have had it for a month or more.
(and he just said this today, as in he just figured it out, he was expecting it to be like the T4, and it just aint)
The T4 in the bug is not like that at ALL, it just goes like hell at anything over ~3000-3500 RPM and enjoy the ride to ~7K.
Shift, lather, rinse, repeat.
Keep it under 3000, putt around, it feels almost stock, with decent low end.
With EFI, it will be exquisite.
A 5 speed would be a BAD thing IMHO, the motor does not want one, causes extra rowing.
A properly geared 3 speed might be perfect. Seriously.
If he had non stock rods, I would have set it to ~7500.
There is also NO need to downshift at 70mph in 4th, ~4K, a T4 with that cam produces a wonderful "punch it anywhere" powerband, and youll see 70>100 in a few seconds, in 4th. Just even more violently in third. You could roll on most cars with no downshift, IMHO. All engine.
(BTW, VERY unlike a stock VR6 anyway, I drove my daugter-in-laws VR6 Jetta, you can actually make it _really_ git if you drive it _just_ right...
My son commented it "took him awhile" to figure out how to drive it... He hated it at first...They have had it for a month or more.
(and he just said this today, as in he just figured it out, he was expecting it to be like the T4, and it just aint)
The T4 in the bug is not like that at ALL, it just goes like hell at anything over ~3000-3500 RPM and enjoy the ride to ~7K.
Shift, lather, rinse, repeat.
Keep it under 3000, putt around, it feels almost stock, with decent low end.
With EFI, it will be exquisite.
A 5 speed would be a BAD thing IMHO, the motor does not want one, causes extra rowing.
A properly geared 3 speed might be perfect. Seriously.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Mysticle31
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- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:06 pm
You make it sound really nice! I'm siting here..ohh I gotta do this project!!
my VR6 has a chip, intake, exhaust (cams were planed but never got there) in a 2200lb car. It took some fenece, really lost breath at oh..5, 5500 but the chip helped. 3-4k was it's golden spot (fealing wise anyway)
What are the different tranny options I have to stock VWs?
Aftermarket ones? Should I get a tranny from the person that builds the engine (IE Jake or Gene Berg, or Bugformace, or..whoever) or should I do custom ratios?
I take it then the T4 really doesn't need a 5 but if I went with a T1 I just may want the 5 becouse of the not so braud power band?
my VR6 has a chip, intake, exhaust (cams were planed but never got there) in a 2200lb car. It took some fenece, really lost breath at oh..5, 5500 but the chip helped. 3-4k was it's golden spot (fealing wise anyway)
What are the different tranny options I have to stock VWs?
Aftermarket ones? Should I get a tranny from the person that builds the engine (IE Jake or Gene Berg, or Bugformace, or..whoever) or should I do custom ratios?
I take it then the T4 really doesn't need a 5 but if I went with a T1 I just may want the 5 becouse of the not so braud power band?
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Piledriver
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Cruise on over to the type4um, read
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=65241
follow the links, esp type4secrets on tunas site. _much_ info there.
You need to ask questions over there-- here, you only get MY view.
All of them have been answered a hundred times before... Search could be better, but mostly works...
There is much experience on the type4um... here, everyone is doing "conversions", the T4>bug swap really approaches a bolt in.
Let me say it another way---This thread is on the WRONG FORUM. ;-)
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=65241
follow the links, esp type4secrets on tunas site. _much_ info there.
You need to ask questions over there-- here, you only get MY view.
All of them have been answered a hundred times before... Search could be better, but mostly works...
There is much experience on the type4um... here, everyone is doing "conversions", the T4>bug swap really approaches a bolt in.
Let me say it another way---This thread is on the WRONG FORUM. ;-)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
Mysticle31
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:06 pm
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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Mysticle31
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:06 pm
There is a strong corvair following. And people tell me not to get a VW becouse they leak oil and are gutless wonders. And you have to fiddle with it every week.
My consern isn't really what power I can generate (I want enough) but the GEARING! I need to be able to take off in first gear, I'd like to make the best use of the power I have (IE not half throtle in 1st becouse any more and you light em up! just to get on it in second) that way you make best use of taking off, and you can take it longer then others.
But I need power available to me in twisty roads slow and fast corners, geting on and off freeways and passing people up to say 90-100mph MAX (on a track of cource..on the freeway unless I'm in the middle of nowhere (death vally, colorado stright strech) I might want to go fast. 80 is about my limit on the freeway, and if someone doesn't want me to pass and gets on it to. Hopefully I'll be in front. If not I'll just get behind him becouse of that nice space he just opend up) with a nice crusing 4th. And I con't really care if 4th is a little aquard to get into becouse it's a crusing gear, and I can just downshift and say byeee!
My consern isn't really what power I can generate (I want enough) but the GEARING! I need to be able to take off in first gear, I'd like to make the best use of the power I have (IE not half throtle in 1st becouse any more and you light em up! just to get on it in second) that way you make best use of taking off, and you can take it longer then others.
But I need power available to me in twisty roads slow and fast corners, geting on and off freeways and passing people up to say 90-100mph MAX (on a track of cource..on the freeway unless I'm in the middle of nowhere (death vally, colorado stright strech) I might want to go fast. 80 is about my limit on the freeway, and if someone doesn't want me to pass and gets on it to. Hopefully I'll be in front. If not I'll just get behind him becouse of that nice space he just opend up) with a nice crusing 4th. And I con't really care if 4th is a little aquard to get into becouse it's a crusing gear, and I can just downshift and say byeee!