OEM German vs. Aftermarket cooling tin

[A_67vdub]

There are two reasons why I cannot go along with the results, just because they have been done. Firstly, I believe they were too specific. Secondly, I believe that the results are now being repeated in too general terms, leading people to make sweeping judgements. There is an implied responsibility here. I am sorry that Jake has to go through the frustration of 'doubters', but that is also the cost in doing that kind of work. If you are right, then it will come out in time and, if you are wrong, then thank goodness we are not all sheep. Anyway, just because no one has seen the 'VW data' does not mean that it does not exist. This idea that no proof means simply 'myth' does not carry water with me.

Your first reason-
When you say "too specific", do you mean the fact that its on a dyno and not in a car? If you do then I think you are mistaken. Jake is doing side by side testing. If his goal was to, "keep all head temps under 350", then yes it would be too specific. But, he is only testing which one cools better and more evenly compared to other shrouds, including stock.

Your second reason-
I think I know what you mean, but it really has nothing to do with the tests, if I understand correctly. I read stuff that other people say about how the 36 horse shroud did the best, and how everybody needs to get one, even though the actual manufacturer of the shroud is still unknown (to the general public). Every time I see this, I make a point to say that it was one specific 36 horse shroud, and you can't expect to bolt on any ol' 36er and get the same results.



Steve

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

Jake is not the one in question here!

The cooling systems are. They are the words that speak volumes to me with their data in direct tests with like loads, like environment and a non variable setting.

I have spent almost 16,000 bucks on my testing since july of 2003.(thats not counting a 6,000 buck TIV test engine and a 2165cc Type I that were basically worn out after all the hell they went through) This was on the actual dyno its self, instruments, more instruments, and even fuel. (Fuel was over 1000 bucks for the first round of TI and TIV testing alone) The testing was very hard on the dyno its self and definately contributed to a 6,000 dollar failure of the main rotor drive in the waterbrake that I JUST got repaired on Monday...

Does that mean its right?? No, but what that means is that I have cared enough to even do the testing, and cared enough to do it as good as it can be done.

Setting the engine up in a like setting the way that I have. Making no changes to the engines tuning during testing and etc... The testing is the most grueling in the world..

Now that testing is continuing in my blue bug with different systems just like it did on the dyno- guess what all the trends have followed! I have so far tested 7 different systems and can say that the trends from system to syetm are almost identical to the dyno test work... just in the car the entire engine runs a tad cooler than on the dyno (across the board)

I don't want people to believe everything I say... want those who don't believe it to respect it enough to challenge me and create their own tests... if they do it correctly with the same basic parameters they'll see the same thing I have because its the truth.........

I give 110% of my life to these engines, they deserve nothing less.

[mharney]

I think the point is being missed here (at least my point). I am not against the work that Jake has done; I am extremely interested in it.

I agree.

However, I think it is only proper that opinions should, and can, be aired without unreasonable criticism, such as: 'no dyno, no comment'. I added that I was not entirely convinced by the testing as, in my opinion, the results were sourced from a limited range of tests.

I agree.

I do not need to produce facts, to make these comments. Jake has set himself up as the researcher and so must take whatever questions, doubters, praise or whatever that comes his way. If he does not like it then he should have kept quiet. I, for one, am glad that he has done the testing but this does not mean that just because he has done it, he is right. In many similar cases of research, the results are argued over for years by people who are of high standing, so we should not assume that the VW world is any different.

You can make all the comments you want, but without some facts, FACTS I say, you have little credibility.

Do you feel Jakes results are good? Is it because you have judged his results to be from valid tests? Why? Suddenly we are all experts about how to judge test results, when even experts will disagree with each other.

Yes, I do think they are good results. His tests are valid. They are under similar conditions, and they SHOW measurements under the same conditions, and represent MAJORITY conditions for these engines. No one runs them wide open all the time, and his parts use represents conditions that are common, regarding cast iron cylinders, popular heads, etc. His tests were performed at similar ambient temperatures (which in itself not only will have little to do with the cooling charactersitics, due to the large differential between the radiating bodies and the air, and the fact that his ambient temperatures were relatively high).

He could have tested with more detail given to different head designs, different loads, and different RPM ranges. He could have done a lot more, yes, but his methods measure for the mainstream, which is what I and most people care about. If you want to haggle over what would happen with superflow heads, or running full load or rpm, I can tell you what will happen. You'll run HOTTER, and once you cross over into turbulent flow it'll all go to hell.

As far as being experts, there are few that can claim that, but I have a formal background in thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, material science, physics, and enough math to get a minor in it if I take one more class. That on top of years of critical problem solving classes gives me enough understanding to say I think his tests are good, albeit not as thorough as some would have them be. I suspect that there is a range of function in which his tests have validity, but I think the RANGE of his testing represents majority duty and hence majority results.

As for VW. There seems to be a rising opinion that if the results of their tests are not to be found readily, they perhaps do not exist. This suggests that maybe VW never ran tests on their fan shrouds!

Nonsense, I think.

The public availability of automotive tests is only a relatively new practice and does not involve the release of data for every aspect of each vehicle. We do know that VW carried out extensive testing on just about anything that went on their vehicles. There is filmed evidence of this work being carried out. The shear volume of testing that went into the smallest part would be overwhelming to most people. Why did VW add the 'vortex ring' to some of their later dog house shrouds? Was it because someone just woke up and thought, "Let's stick a vortex ring on it"! For anyone without tens of thousands of dollars at their disposal, to attempt serious full out testing of a major engine component, is liable to end up with unreliable results.

I've never seen VW do anything without a purpose.

In the end it is perfectly fine to do research and testing (I have done it myself) but it has to be seen in the context of what it is. What worries me, is that people are now corrupting comments that even Jake himself has made and this goes on, like rumour, to cause damage.

Yes, and it is utter BS, I think the man should get the credit for what he did, and ridicule should stay with the mirror. Criticism should be taken for what it is, only.

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

I have nor formal education in anything..... But I CAN (and have) built a VW engine blindfolded..... HA!

Like I said... I created the scenario and the shrouds themselves did the rest. Some did little, some did alot. all were given the same chance and in round 2 they will yet again.

[mharney]

Well, then it's fair to say that I can appreciate your tests in a way you can't. I'm looking forward to the article.

BTW... you recently told me (us) that your balance prices went up by 20 dollars. Your website says the race balance is $250, and you said it was now $325 I think. That sounds like a $75 increase to me. Is that right?

[amskeptic]

....Jake was sitting there as damn dumbfounded as any true scientist has occasioned. Crap Chrome Wins The Day was no headline he could have dreamed up for any reason other than. . . fact. Documented.

This is precisely what I mean!! Jake could, justifiably accuse many of us of 'a little knowledge is dangerous', but this is what is actually happening.

Oh please, do ya think a whole new generation of rabid proseltyzers are going to spring forth like locusts screaming that aftermarket chrome 36 shrouds are the one-and-only solution to all air-cooled engine needs?
No. I read his tests and concluded only that he found an interesting anomaly that he said he was going to investigate further. And we await his further tests with curiosity and no small appreciation for his willingness to share the excitement of the pursuit.
Tell us more about justifiably accusatory suppositions. . .
Colin

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

The intermediate and performance balance jobs went up 20 bucks... The race balance did go up 75 because it takes so long to turn around..

I wish I would have never posted what actually worked. It has been nothing but a pain in the ass ever since....

[67 newbie]

I wish I would have never posted what actually worked. It has been nothing but a pain in the ass ever since....

I just wish we could find out which one did it.. and find out how it does in your car!!

[PJMS]

When you say "too specific", do you mean the fact that its on a dyno and not in a car?......he is only testing which one cools better and more evenly compared to other shrouds, including stock.

No, what I mean't was that the tests should have been on a variety of engines of the same specification. If my memory was correct, the main engine tested wasn't stock but jake made a point that this was not his intention, so I can't argue that point, although I wish it had been. Anyway, same spec engines assembled from new and tested in different climactic conditions.

I do take the point that these test were comparative tests, so there is validity present. I am not saying that the results are wrong, only that I think they are unreliable. The comments that I have been reading on this, and other forums, lead me to the conclusion that many people have taken the published results and derived conclusions that I think are risky.

[Max Welton]

When you say "too specific", do you mean the fact that its on a dyno and not in a car?......he is only testing which one cools better and more evenly compared to other shrouds, including stock.

No, what I mean't was that the tests should have been on a variety of engines of the same specification. If my memory was correct, the main engine tested wasn't stock but jake made a point that this was not his intention, so I can't argue that point, although I wish it had been. Anyway, same spec engines assembled from new and tested in different climactic conditions.

Not sure what the point of that could be. When the object is to compare the effectiveness of different shrouds, everything else has to be held as constant as possible. Why introduce variability (other than the shroud) intentionaly?

[PJMS]

You can make all the comments you want, but without some facts, FACTS I say, you have little credibility.

Again, I feel my point has been missed. You are assuming that Jakes results represent "facts". In most peoples minds, 'facts' equals 'truth'. Yes, to be specific, the results are 'facts' as in information, but they are being understood as 'truth'. I simply feel that the tests are unsafe and therefore the conclusions drawn from them should be guarded. This is my opinion and I do not require comparative facts to express it.

Yes, I do think they are good results. His tests are valid.....He could have tested with more detail given to different head designs, different loads, and different RPM ranges. He could have done a lot more, yes, but his methods measure for the mainstream, which is what I and most people care about. If you want to haggle over what would happen with superflow heads, or running full load or rpm, I can tell you what will happen. You'll run HOTTER, and once you cross over into turbulent flow it'll all go to hell.

I am not interested in 'superflow' etc. I figure you look for base results first. What I think is that more tests on a larger number of same spec engines over a wider range of ambient conditions. This would take into account the variations in 'same spec' engines while giving more information over the full range of climatic uses. The cost of this would have been horrendous!

.....the man should get the credit for what he did, and ridicule should stay with the mirror. Criticism should be taken for what it is, only.

I think I agree with this. I have read comments that have no business being typed. Criticism is a useful tool for getting to the heart of a matter, however, when it turns personal (for whatever reason), it becomes of no use to anyone. I will stand my ground in the comments that I make, but ultimately, I know I might have to concede that I have learned something new too.

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

Nothing beats OFAT (one factor at a time) testing..

Keeping the engine the same the entire time gave a great indication of what each system was capable of with the same base line.

I used a 10:1 2165 for a reason. It makes generous heat and creates plenty of power to see what the fan belt robs from each system.

The testing could not get any better, and it won't.... This cost a TREMENDOUS amount of money to do and sucks me away from getting other engine jobs done. Its only March and 2/3 of my budget for R&D is already expended. So much for getting a 911 system for a TIV done this year!

[Class 11 streeter]

.....proseltyzers......

I had to look this word up, and I had a good chuckle when I understood it's meaning!

Look for me at the Classic this June, I'll be wearing a long robe holding signs proclaiming Bright Is Right in 36 Horse Chrome, and also The End Is Near, Cast Out All Thermo Flaps NOW!.

Anyway, I think if we had genuine VW data on OEM fanshrouds in German right here on this forum there is going to be people who won't accept it for whatever reason. Fine, so be it.

In any field of study, "experts" on a given subject will have disagreements, always. I am sure those clever VW engineers did too.

[RT]

Being analytical at times is OK but having an analytical personality can make you a real PITA. The same goes for education vs experience. A nice balanced linear line is ideal. Too little of either and trust me, its painfully obvious to those you interact with.

It also pains me to watch Jake have to defend his work when it's nothing short of ground-breaking in our hobby. We have a minefield of misinformation and cheap market-driven garbage parts, but here's one of a few individuals trying to make a difference and taking a broadside for doing so. My considerable VW experience tells me the methods are sound. If my petty ego were to say otherwise, then my sense of reason and good manners would hopefully kick in before I reach for the flamethrower.

[PJMS]

.....We have a minefield of misinformation and cheap market-driven garbage parts, but here's one of a few individuals trying to make a difference and taking a broadside for doing so......

I agree with your sentiments but I think that many people are unaware of just how many people are trying to bring quality to the market place and I think it is a little unfair to compare this spate of testing with the contribution of others. These 'others' have, at times, given the shirt off their backs to maintain a standard in the face of the monster sharks who keep 'shirts' as trophies.

The amount of money that has been spent on this testing pales in comparison with the sums certain individuals have put up in order to bring 'only' quality and have it distributed where the every day person can get their hands on it. The trouble that these people have to go through, to achieve this, is understandably unknown to most. Not only do they have to wear the mighty hand of VW, but they have to take on the attacks from local importers who, with freindly faces, dump parts on the market so as to undermine the business of the ones who are in it for the love of the product.

Yes these same 'lovers' stand to win in the end, if they succeed in their battle, but often times there would have been an easier course to take except for their determination to maintain standards. Jake has nothing to gain from his testing but reputation, and reputation goes a long way in this business.

Not all critism is bad. It keeps people focused and it defends those that may not have the time or knowledge to defend themselves. I think Jake has done a good job of defending himself, although I imagine he is somewhat fed up with it all. I look forward to the formal publishing of the results and to keeping a balanced head in judgement.