no more or less than 3 shims?

This is the place to discuss, or get help with any of your Type 4 questions.
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

dstar wrote:I TOLD the audience what it was, AND what it was FOR!
"If you use FOUR, then you have an extra oil gap, that was NOT a part of the design.
Four shims will give too much total *play* when *dry* and will eventually
damage the mains....

I can read, I know what you said - but it doesn't matter how often or emphatically you say it, I still disagree. When you can offer any substantive proof of what you say rather than recite dogma, I'm fully prepared to stand corrected. Meanwhile it's just two guys bickering with no facts to back up either position - the only reason I refuse to let you have the last word is that both sides of the argument should be presented for the readers to ponder. All the caps & exclamation points in the world don't strengthen your case.
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tuna
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Post by tuna »

This thread is starting to lose traction. It's obvious you two disagree on the point, so let's quit with the bickering and move on. If we can't move on, I will lock the thread.

Tuna
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

I have nothing to add. Thanks for your patience to this point.
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dstar
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...... THREE SHIMS.....!

Post by dstar »

:lol:

Thanks Tuna!

Don
platform115
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Post by platform115 »

WOW!... I don't check my post in *less* than a day, and already it's been threatened with being locked!
hahahaha

well.. I guess I'll be using 3 shims if at all possible...
I need to get my friggin magnetic base... it's "in the mail" I guess.

so.. if this won't cause massive trouble...
what is this "oil gaps" deal.. I've tried to do the research on it and can't find zip.
will it really cause a problem if I were to use 4?

where have you read about this Don?
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dstar
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4 SHIMS are for LAZY LOSERS!

Post by dstar »

Go to GOOGLE,

Don't search on "oil gap" search for "VW+flywheel+shim", then read a lot....

I'll PM you after I get back from lunch.........
8)

Don
Last edited by dstar on Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

platform115 wrote:...will it really cause a problem if I were to use 4?
Obviously some think it will and some don't. Don't expect to find consensus. Hopefully it'll be a moot point for you; if you find that you can't achieve proper endplay using three of the thickest shims and don't want to take any chances by thinking for yourself, you could have the mating surface of the flywheel machined off by a few thousandths.

I've wondered about this question as long as I've been working on VWs, and have found several plausible explanations for the reasoning behind the use of three shims. One that's appealing is that with three, one can stick to the bearing and one can stick to the flywheel and you'll still have one floating free between them....not that I've ever seen any stuck to either surface if the endplay was correct to begin with, but it sounds good.

Opinions on the importance of the exact number of shims differ, amongst experienced and respected builders. You won't have any trouble finding "authoritive" explanations from people who think they know the answer, but without a time machine and fluency in Technical German you probably aren't going to find any PROOF of the origin of the three-shim dogma.
MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:no more than 3 shims, no less than 3 shims. If 3 shims of different thicknesses won't do it you have a case/bearing/flywheel problem. Find it.
Sharkey wrote:As long as you arrive at 0.003"-0.005" final clearance, it really doesn't matter how many shims you use -- as long as you use a minimum of three shims. The claim that you must use three shims is a myth.
This is the explanation I find the most appealing, although I've never found any "white paper" to support it:
amskeptic wrote: Reduces shear loads on the oil. The shims serve as bearings to reduce the speed differential that the oil has to maintain a film against. There is no oil pressure feed between the shims unlike main and connecting rod bearings. At 6,000rpm with three shims you have no more than a 1,500rpm difference between two surfaces, well within oil's ability to maintain a film in a simple splash bath.
Note that if you follow this reasoning, four might be even better than three - but the vast majority of engines and other rotating assemblies which require endplay control use one shim...some use none. I think that the idea I postulated above, that it was done more for manufacturing economy than any other consideration, is worth considering.
platform115
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Post by platform115 »

that's a good enough explanation for me!
what that means to me, is;
use 3 shims.
if I have to use 4, use 4
if I have to use more... well.... than there could be a deeper problem.

Thanks everyone!
maybe we can have a steel caged death match to get the "final" answer one day...
hahaha
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dstar
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3 SHIMS, NO MORE NO LESS! SAVE YOUR ENGINE!

Post by dstar »

platform115 wrote:that's a good enough explanation for me!
what that means to me, is;
use 3 shims.
if I have to use 4, use 4
if I have to use more... well.... than there could be a deeper problem.
It IS your engine, isn't it?
You may do as you wish!

I suggest you consult your rebuild manual.....
:lol:
platform115 wrote: Thanks everyone!
maybe we can have a steel caged death match to get the "final" answer one day...
hahaha
BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Cage match isn't necessary!

Marc hit on the correct points, oil shear and ease of
manufacturing.

I won't show my butt on this forum...... Image

Others may do as THEY wish...
:lol:

BTW, this is fun reading, might open a few eyes......

http://www.mejor.com/356/maestro/textst ... izint2.txt

Don
Last edited by dstar on Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
platform115
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Post by platform115 »

I actually found that document, and not to sound completely stupid.. but I don't understand why that means you must use 3 shims...
It's all about the flywheel main bearing...
which I don't even know where the hell that goes..
I have 2 flywheels. neither have any kind of bearing in their center.
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

The salient point in that "Maestro" article is that one should never increase the thickness of the shim stack to attempt to remove excess endplay unless they're certain that the measured endplay is between the flywheel/crank and the thrust bearing, not between the thrust bearing and the case.
He uses the term "Flywheel Main Bearing" for the front main, what I would call the thrust bearing or #1 main bearing.
platform115
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Post by platform115 »

ah ha! yes! that's what I would call it too.
infinitely more clear.
thanks
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dstar
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STICK WITH THREE SHIMS :-)

Post by dstar »

platform115 wrote:ah ha! yes! that's what I would call it too.
infinitely more clear.
thanks
You are welcome, just trying to help!
:D

Hope that YOU checked all your surfaces..Jake tried to warn ya....
8)

Good LUCK on your engine build!

Don
platform115
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Post by platform115 »

thanks! yeah I've tried to be slow and carefull..
checking, rechecking, re-rechecking...checking in my sleep, checking while I'm eating.. etc, etc...
basically I feel pretty confifent in the overall build. It seems to be going together very solid.
no real problems except the ones I have from not knowing what the hell i'm doing :P
I *THINK* so far anyway, that I at least have had enough knowledge/brains to know when I should ask a question...
the forums are GREAT, so is my local bus club, and so is the internet..
okay i'm done :P
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dstar
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Post by dstar »

Yes, local clubs are good, IF they are in tune with the Type 4....
:lol:

Don
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