Rear camber question

john deaver · Post by **john deaver** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:33 pm

Thanks guys

This all seams to make sense.

I don?t think I can stand my car any lower (dragin the muffler as it is)

But, I do think I could make it stiffer.
I already have urethane bushings in the rear and good stock bearings in the front so I can?t see much improvement there.
Right now I?m running some cheapo gas shocks I got at the local bug shop but I was considering a set of KYB GR-2?s or gas-a-just. I know they say the Gas-a-just are uncomfortably stiff but I hear that from folks rolling around on 165/80 15?s (or 135?s up front) so they may have different priorities.

I also have heard folks talk about Type 3 rear torsion bars in a bug? These should be stiffer but I guess this would be a bad idea without upgrading the front torsion bars as well (way stiff rear with normal front)

Any thoughts on shocks or other components

I know in the end it comes down to setup as a whole and driver but I would like to have an idea of what other folks have tried.

I think the standard bug with IRS and modern shocks should be able to out-handle some of the early racing Porsches ( if you take the driver out of the equation) and perhaps come close to a early 911 levels. That should put it in the same league with a lot of the cars you commonly see at a Solo II. Then all we need to do is match the power to weight ratio and we should be golden.

john

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:22 pm

I have the GR2 in the front and Gas adjusts in the rear. I find the ride to be quite comforable. I am running 185/65 tires, which are lower profile than stock but still give a little cushion. My wifes Miata in stock form feels alot rougher on bumpy roads.

Ron

Mark H · Post by **Mark H** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:48 pm

I think this is the reason to limit roll>"

"you do want the wheels to be close to vertical at all times (again so we can keep those tires working), and in many common chassis designs that means limiting body roll (this is particularly true of our VWs)."

I agree here. The reason body roll is to be reduced is because when suspention is taken to its upper or lower limits (as in excessive body roll) your tires are no longer flat to the ground. This means loss of traction. Swaybars limit the suspention to the center of its travel. This is where the wheel camber and alignment change the least keeping the tires flat to the ground as longas the camber settings are right for your car and the amount of roll you may have.
My Super beetle has no sway bars and bad shocks but it is lowered and has Bridgestone Potenza 195 and 185 -65 tires on it . The car leans over badly in a corner but sticks like glue! I was amazed when I first tryed the car and kept taking it faster into corners. I atribute this great cornering ability to great tires and the fact that both the front and rear of my car has noticable negitive camber. Therefore when the car leans over the tires are square with the road. They also are wearing out faster but I have not found any one to recamber the rear arms so I guess Im stuck with it. But when I do correct the camber Ill need to get swaybars .
My old Super had front and rear swaybars but I did not like the way it would break away at the rear so suddenly. I eventually slid the car off an onramp into the ice plant and rolled it because of this handling defect. I think I will only get a front swaybar on my new car.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:40 am

Mark, Which bridgestone Potenzas do you have? I put the RE 950s on my Ghia, and I was amazed at how they stuck and how responsive they are. Those tires made more difference in handling then replacing my worn out shocks and adding sway bars. And this is only rated as a "high performance all season tire" 45K milage rating. How sticky can you expect a 45K tire? I now have them on the subaru wagon and my wifes Miata.

Ron

Mark H · Post by **Mark H** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am

Plastermaster wrote:Mark, Which bridgestone Potenzas do you have? I put the RE 950s on my Ghia, and I was amazed at how they stuck and how responsive they are. Those tires made more difference in handling then replacing my worn out shocks and adding sway bars. And this is only rated as a "high performance all season tire" 45K milage rating. How sticky can you expect a 45K tire? I now have them on the subaru wagon and my wifes Miata.

Ron

Yup, thats them. Those tires are amazing.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:27 pm

I've never had an oversteer experience. Say the rear starts coming around, and you then steer into the spin ( steer into oncoming traffic). Does this all result in the car drifting into oncoming traffic? Is it a choice of running off the other side of the road forward rather than backwards?

Ron

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:24 pm

this is probably best handled in another threat. this one is already overloaded.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:22 pm

gcorrado wrote:this is probably best handled in another threat. this one is already overloaded.

Are you kidding? Some of the other forums have threads 8 pages long!

Ron

Mark H · Post by **Mark H** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:08 pm

Plastermaster wrote:I've never had an oversteer experience. Say the rear starts coming around, and you then steer into the spin ( steer into oncoming traffic). Does this all result in the car drifting into oncoming traffic? Is it a choice of running off the other side of the road forward rather than backwards?

Ron

well it depends on which way you are steering. I guess the point is to try and keep control. If you want to practice tail happy driving then get into an offroad car somehow. Even at slow speeds the tail end of the car is always moving and you must keep it in line with steering and throttle. Itsgreat practice.

73notch · Post by **73notch** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:23 pm

I've never had an oversteer experience. Say the rear starts coming around, and you then steer into the spin ( steer into oncoming traffic). Does this all result in the car drifting into oncoming traffic? Is it a choice of running off the other side of the road forward rather than backwards?

Ron

that just means you arent turning into the corner fast enough haha.
if you do make sure you stay on the throttle, otherwise youll keep goin. and countersteer.

as for drifting into oncoming traffic? maybe if you are goin hella fast.

lorddoom · Post by **lorddoom** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:23 pm

Plastermaster wrote:I've never had an oversteer experience. Say the rear starts coming around, and you then steer into the spin ( steer into oncoming traffic). Does this all result in the car drifting into oncoming traffic? Is it a choice of running off the other side of the road forward rather than backwards?

Ron

Driving my torino, which is light in the rear and has an ungodly amount of torque, I have come across oversteer quite often. An example, you are taking a left turn, the rear end starts to swing out. With oversteer you literally oversteer, so now instead of staying along the turn you are pointed into the other lane. Countersteering trys to put your nose back on the original track. So you would end up sliding slightly sideways but still as much in your lane as possible. Basically you countersteer to get the front back to the front, since the rear is trying to slide around.

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:59 am

I t sounds like the 4 wheel drift is not going to drift too far unless you are really going too too fast. I guess we can call that too fast^2.

So when approaching the turn be as close to the inside as possible, so if you need to 4 wheel drift, hopefully you will stay in your lane.

gcorrado started another thread for this as he suggested. Lets all head over there.

Ron

Plastermaster · Post by **Plastermaster** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:33 pm

One thing that has not been addressed... and it is important in understanding body roll, and weight transfer. That is sprung and unsprung weight. The looser suspension and increased suspension travel (not the same thing exactly), decreases weight transfer. Remember how we pointed out that the body roll moves the CG a bit and that has only a small effect? Well, the body (everything connected to the top of the shock) is refered to as sprung weight. As the car leans or rolls you can think of this as something it does instead of weight transfer which over taxes the ability of the outside tire to keep traction. The unsprung weight (everything attatched to the bottom end of the suspension) is not transferable weight. It stays on the ground as the body leans. If the suspension is stiff, the inside wheels are picked up and all the weight is now on the outside wheels.

Ron

ericsbracer · Post by **ericsbracer** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:25 am

If I can just hop in here for a second....

I had a very interesting discussion with the tire tech at the G-Force Challenge, specifically about the issue of camber (the Plum had too much in the rear-3 or 4 degrees at the time) and tire design. How much camber you can run that will actuall HELP with handling is based a great deal on just how stiff the sidewalls are on the tires you're using. To illustrate, he did a tire temp check on my rear tires AFTER the skid pad portion of the event. Even after a couple .095+ passes, and maintaining a 4 pass average of .0937 - the outside edges of the tread were measurably cooler than the insides. The G-Force tires are so stiff in the sidewalls that even when flogging around a skidpad at those G's - the tire didn't flex enough to overcome the excessive camber. The fronts were set at about 3/4 degree - and had a pretty even heat distribution across the tread.

Based on all that, too much camber (based on the tire you're running) can actually hurt your handling - not help...

Pooter · Post by **Pooter** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:02 pm

i would like to take a moment to clap my hands in awe of the wealth of knowledge. i have experienced most of this but now have an understanding of what is happening.

where is the new thread? title?

thanks

73' 1303