Type 4 vs Subie vs Rotory? Bang for buck reliable power?

Post by **Piledriver** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:15 pm

A Wasser uses a T4 flywheel and clutch, and bolts on like any T1/T4. The relavant dimensions are all the same---

No adaptor, no "custom" clutch, save that wassers all come with forged 228 mm flywheels, and the 228mm pressure plates simply do not clear without _major_ work in a T1 trans. (Its ALL clutch)

To put a 210 or 215 MM T4 fly/cluch in a T1 tranny, one only must add the input shaft bearing in the flywheel, just as for a T4. (`71 or later tranny, with the guide tube, or the adaptor tube on earlier transmissions)

The starter just works.

A 228 CAN also fit, but not suggested, it has issues with the starter, mega metal removal from the bellhousing etc. Requires self supported starter for a 914/late bus/vanagon, and a 1/2" spacer---Ugly. I have done this under duress. It works fine. I still don't recommend it.

It will of course bolt into a 091 trans, and 901//914 tranny, and work fine.

With an automatic, one would just have to acquire the T4 flex plate, or one from a Wasser, which is the same.

As to the "T5", think of it as a T1 with a REALLY awesome quality 6061T6 pressure die cast block, with integral oil filter mount.

Other than the block and some T4 mains, and a 76mm stock stroke on the 2.1s, (T4 center and rear mains??? cant remember) it will have most all the good and bad points of any other T1 once air cooled, as it really IS a T1, with some mods.

Mysticle31 · Post by **Mysticle31** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:47 pm

I take it that the T5 really is the ultimate VW engine? Can it use all the Type 1 stuff? I know type 1 heads are better then type 4 heads becouse of the exhaust valve or something like that. And that the T4 block is better then the T1 but if the t5 is better then both?

I'd imagine they are $$$ to make. Can you use type 1 stuff in a type 5?

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:34 am

Ultimate? no.

The T4 bottom end is somewhat stronger. The T4 cooling is FAR superior to T1, just in ~2x fin area alone.

OTOH, if you are building a VERY HiPo motor on the semi-cheap, all the T1 top end stuff fits, one the wasser block is modified--That's the kicker, it's NOT a bolt in by any means, it requires money, but the results are worth it to some.

If I was building a T1, and wanted a bulletproof bottom end, it's how I would go.

As a wasser, it has excellent flowing heads, but they cannot rev---need much custom work. It also has a much better cooling system, at least in some ways, for turbo apps.

Hit the T5 forum for more info.

Mysticle31 · Post by **Mysticle31** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:08 pm

So my understanding is the T5 can use the T1 parts so it's cheaper, but it requires special $ machineing. And it's got a stronger case.

Where can I find type 4 parts? (cranks, cams, pistons/cylinders, etc..) to rebuild a type 4. Eather for boost, or NA power, or just low boost stock. It's a good 100HP stock to start with.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:20 am

The Type4um is a great place to start.

Even a stockish 1700 T4 is a hoot in a bug.

Mysticle31 · Post by **Mysticle31** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:02 pm

I was browsing around aircooled.net. And found something interesting. They have two (reasonable, no nickies here) piston and cylinder sets (cheepest option just for comarason) for 575 and 700. While the type 1s are 200.

The type 4 heads are 6-700, and the type 1 heads are 900. What's the diff here!

Is it reliable to use type 1 pistons and rods in a type 4? (aircooled.net has those options) It chould save some beans. Makes me wonder what other type 1 stuff can be used..

Is the type 4 case itself the same (or damn near it) for all these type 4 cars (Porsche VW..) Just the displacement and heads are different?

metropoj · Post by **metropoj** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:50 am

Theres a pair of NOS 1.7 TIV heads on the Samba ( never had valves installed for 300 ), they may be worth checking out .....

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:09 pm

NOS NOS NOS.. I hear that all the time but I don't know what it means. I hear NOS I think..Fast and the Furious, BOOOOM, Nitrous Oxide.

Shadowbug · Post by **Shadowbug** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:12 pm

NOS = new old stock
original replacement parts, not cheap knockoffs, worth the extra buck usually.

Mysticle31 · Post by **Mysticle31** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:41 pm

Are aftermarket pars bad quality or something?

Mysticle31 · Post by **Mysticle31** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:04 pm

You have several places to put the radiator on those Mulholland kits IIRC.

I'd like more information on this!

Question about the wasserboxers. How much does it cost to make them aircooled? Do they have a strong type 4 style bottem end with a type 1 top end? Where can I find parts? Can I use type 1 cranks rods...etc with type 4 bearings or something?

Shadowbug · Post by **Shadowbug** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:24 pm

Mysticle31 wrote:Are aftermarket pars bad quality or something?

aftermarket parts aren't usually up to the same quality as the original german parts,
for example repro fenders are made from thinner guage steel and the bolt holes don't line up quite right.

Post by **Piledriver** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:55 pm

The type 4 parts are going to be Keith Black Hyperutetic cast pistons (slightly less expensive) or JE forged pistons (bloody expensive).

The Type 1 parts are spun cast Cimas from Brazil or Mexico, made from recycled Tecate cans ;-)
(They are actually OK in my experience)

If you want KBs or JEs for T1s, they'll cost ~ the same as for T4.

You get what you pay for. If you're lucky.

(aircooled.net is a great place to shop BTW. Just a satisfied customer)

Mysticle31 · Post by **Mysticle31** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:43 am

I've realised, part for part, displacement for displacement, HP for HP (that's a strech)

The type 1 and 4 cost the same. But. Type 4 cams are $$$$$ and type for exhausts are $$$ and type 4 cranks are $.

What other aircooled engines can I stuff in the back of this car? Porsche? Corvair? Any others? BIG motorcycle? Aircraft?

Shadowbug · Post by **Shadowbug** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:45 am

I'm tempted to pull the engine out of my subaru and drop it in a beetle. these are way cool engines.