OEM German vs. Aftermarket cooling tin

Ben Gun · Post by **Ben Gun** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:40 am

Just my experiance talking. If you can find an after market fan shroud that will fit ok then fine. But they have fewer spot welds in the fan / vane area and tend to crack loose there. Cylender tin has a deflection part missing above and inside between the spark plug holes. The after market parts are stamped out poorly and you will need to trim and cut alot. Their material is inferior. This isnt in argument its just fact. Go to a swap meet and find some german tin in decent shape. You will be glad you did.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:33 am

The tin is much better from the factory.. The shroud is the only aftermarket part that I'm suggesting and thats just ONE of them..

drkoontz · Post by **drkoontz** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:45 pm

Thanks Jake for putting your blood sweat and tears in all you do for the VW community.
Sometimes the truth surprises us all.

, Michael

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:The dyno don't lie..... especially not when the same test was done with every shroud at the same RPM and load.

I started the testing to prove that my DTM was the hot set up... It was just that- totally wigged out and needing total redesign.

I have NOTHING AT ALL to gain from sharing these test results. I absolutely hate Chrome tin, and still do. But I can honestly admit that the ONE particular shroud that was a 36HP style whipped everything else.

The same tests are now being done in my test car with the same engine- guess what?? the same numbers and margins from 1-2 side to 3-4 side are popping up there as well.

I spent 18 days of my dyno time, 430.00 on fuel, and built an engine specifically for this testing. I put every ounce of enthusiasm that I had in to those 16 hour days- Please don't doubt it. If you do I ask that you purchase a dyno, build a test engine and then do your own testing. You will soon see that it is far from fun, far from easy, and far from being cheap.

I do things that defy conventional wisdom all the time. Just because things that have been MYTH for 30 years are PRVEN WRONG is not reasoning to doubt the test work. Thats why I DO TEST WORK!

How was the "Truth" for the last 30 years tested?? Ever seen a graph from the test and what it was compared to? Ever seen their testing outline? How was the data acquired? How was the engine set up?

Those answers are "I don't know, never seen the graphs" well you'll be seeing mine soon in Ultra VW from start to finish... what does that old saying say??? "Believe nothing of what you hear and half of what you see..." since you can see mine atleast you can believe half of it, and thats more than you can believe of those "Myths" that floated around for 30 years before I ponied up 7,400.00 and decided to test it.... That money came out of MY pocket- not anyone elses.

Try it some time-

PJMS · Post by **PJMS** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:22 pm

I have been very interested in what Jake has done and I too look forward to analysing the data. However, I take great exception to the idea that we are not allowed to make a judgement on Jakes testing unless we too go and get a dyno!! Some of us are intellegent and are capable of seeing things differently form others. This makes it possible for right minded people to learn from each other and come to some consensus over the right action. I am glad that someone has gone out and tried to shed light where there has been much talk, but not all the talk can be dismissed. I do not trust the results from Jakes testing, but I have no reason to mistrust Jakes intentions or actions.

There are two reasons why I cannot go along with the results, just because they have been done. Firstly, I believe they were too specific. Secondly, I believe that the results are now being repeated in too general terms, leading people to make sweeping judgements. There is an implied responsibility here. I am sorry that Jake has to go through the frustration of 'doubters', but that is also the cost in doing that kind of work. If you are right, then it will come out in time and, if you are wrong, then thank goodness we are not all sheep. Anyway, just because no one has seen the 'VW data' does not mean that it does not exist. This idea that no proof means simply 'myth' does not carry water with me.

Bugbit5 · Post by **Bugbit5** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:53 am

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread.

Where would a person find good (German) OEM'ed dual port cylinder tin? In an earlier post there was a link to CB's Shroud and related tin. I now need dual port cylinder tin.

Any pointers would be great.

Thanks.

amskeptic · Post by **amskeptic** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:54 pm

PJMS wrote:
This idea that no proof means simply 'myth'
does not carry water with me.

After reading Bill Bryson's " A Brief History Of Almost Everything" I am ready to demand proof of so many hitherto-presented-as-fact myths. More and more I see beliefs masquerading as "facts" (WMD in Iraq) with a huge dollop of ego or hidden agenda driving the things forward.
Jake was sitting there as damn dumbfounded as any true scientist has occasioned. Crap Chrome Wins The Day was no headline he could have dreamed up for any reason other than. . . fact. Documented.
Colin

PJMS · Post by **PJMS** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:19 am

amskeptic wrote:....Jake was sitting there as damn dumbfounded as any true scientist has occasioned. Crap Chrome Wins The Day was no headline he could have dreamed up for any reason other than. . . fact. Documented.

This is precisely what I mean!! Jake could, justifiably accousemany of us of 'a little knowledge is dangerous', but this is what is actually happening.

general_lee_jr · Post by **general_lee_jr** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:10 am

Cooling tin is highly over rated.

mharney · Post by **mharney** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:24 am

PJMS wrote:
amskeptic wrote:....Jake was sitting there as damn dumbfounded as any true scientist has occasioned. Crap Chrome Wins The Day was no headline he could have dreamed up for any reason other than. . . fact. Documented.
This is precisely what I mean!! Jake could, justifiably accousemany of us of 'a little knowledge is dangerous', but this is what is actually happening.

Where are your facts? Where is your data? All I see is talk.

He may have made some specific tests, but the fact is, he tested on the same engine combo, which will create similar heat runs, under similar conditions, and those results will be affected by ambient temperature and humidity, but all in a similar fashion, because those factors will not affect the airflow and the conductive and convective characteristics of that airflow. Where he tested, however, was at the heads, and not the cylinders. The cylinder temperatures could be variable with respect to the head temps due to the way the shrouds were directing the air, though this is a relatively small consideration, as the cast iron cylinders are unlikely to be as markedly affected.

A_67vdub · Post by **A_67vdub** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:58 am

I thought he tested the cylinders in three different places? I could be wrong, but I thought I read that.

Steve

drkoontz · Post by **drkoontz** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:17 pm

general_lee_jr wrote:Cooling tin is highly over rated.

No wonder were having cooling trouble you have the entire engine covered with black sheet metal.

Take it all off,Isn't it an aircooled engine?????

Let the fins breath !

((((((((JOKE)))))))))

Bugbit5 · Post by **Bugbit5** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:09 pm

I've searched the web high and low and can't find any place that sells "OEM" tin. Just aftermarket tin. I know that CBPerformance is selling the German OEM'ed Fan Shrouds and such...but their cylinder tin doesn't say anything about being German OEM.

Am I being a little to worried about this stuff? I know I need good tin to keep my engine cool, but if OEM'ed stuff is the best where is it at? Are there any good substitute manufacture's of this stuff ( I think I saw Scat somewhere as being secon to OEM'ed tin)?

Just wanting the best for my engine...that's all. Thanks for any and all input.

67 newbie · Post by **67 newbie** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:37 pm

Swap meets dude... stuff is cheap and its OEM... bought a doghouse shroud with flaps and everything for $10... hell I gave 1 away that did not have the flaps in it.

swap meets and junkyards are your best friend when looking for original parts on a 30yr old car!

PJMS · Post by **PJMS** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:03 pm

mharney wrote:Where are your facts? Where is your data? All I see is talk.

I think the point is being missed here (at least my point). I am not against the work that Jake has done; I am extremely interested in it. However, I think it is only proper that opinions should, and can, be aired without unreasonable criticism, such as: 'no dyno, no comment'. I added that I was not entirely convinced by the testing as, in my opinion, the results were sourced from a limited range of tests.

I do not need to produce facts, to make these comments. Jake has set himself up as the researcher and so must take whatever questions, doubters, praise or whatever that comes his way. If he does not like it then he should have kept quiet. I, for one, am glad that he has done the testing but this does not mean that just because he has done it, he is right. In many similar cases of research, the results are argued over for years by people who are of high standing, so we should not assume that the VW world is any different.

Do you feel Jakes results are good? Is it because you have judged his results to be from valid tests? Why? Suddenly we are all experts about how to judge test results, when even experts will disagree with each other.

As for VW. There seems to be a rising opinion that if the results of their tests are not to be found readily, they perhaps do not exist. This suggests that maybe VW never ran tests on their fan shrouds! The public availability of automotive tests is only a relatively new practice and does not involve the release of data for every aspect of each vehicle. We do know that VW carried out extensive testing on just about anything that went on their vehicles. There is filmed evidence of this work being carried out. The shear volume of testing that went into the smallest part would be overwhelming to most people. Why did VW add the 'vortex ring' to some of their later dog house shrouds? Was it because someone just woke up and thought, "Let's stick a vortex ring on it"! For anyone without tens of thousands of dollars at their disposal, to attempt serious full out testing of a major engine component, is liable to end up with unreliable results.

In the end it is perfectly fine to do research and testing (I have done it myself) but it has to be seen in the context of what it is. What worries me, is that people are now corrupting comments that even Jake himself has made and this goes on, like rumour, to cause damage.

PJMS · Post by **PJMS** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:10 pm

Bugbit5 wrote:I've searched the web high and low and can't find any place that sells "OEM" tin. Just aftermarket tin. I know that CBPerformance is selling the German OEM'ed Fan Shrouds and such...but their cylinder tin doesn't say anything about being German OEM.

It is not so much that you need German OEM, as Mexico OEM is just as good. There are several suppliers who want to market the Mexican cylinder tin, however, it is still very expensive, even from the VW factories. When the price is right, you will see more of it around. Strange enough, the Mexico OEM fan shrouds are well priced so you can find these. The Brazilian OEM is also good but tends to be more specific to Brazilian model needs, which are strange at the best of times.