Hey Ray, received the Koni's today from www.classicgarage.com after Stuart over there has been trying to get the info from Holland and matching the gland washer/spacer for the top of the struts. Well it's a nice harden peice but is a little too tall and not wide enough but the funny thing is the Timken Bearing race(05158) I was trying to use with the Gabriel struts is very close just the inner 38mm dia. needs to be 36mm but the height is right there. Now I'm trying to remeasure the mount and get the end of the strut rod shaft tapper to match the original tapper length. Can you tell me if I want to keep the distance of the spring plates the same as original or is this where I need to extend the shaft to increase that distance to make up the 1/2" to 3/4" front nose adj. or do I increase the space between the top spring plate and the bottom of the mount bearing?
Should the cone of the bottom bearing plate meet the top spring plate?
That is where the spacer is on mine and would seem if it met the spring plate,the bottom bearing cone, then there would be no flex in the mount? Sorry for asking again but after going back to it now it is hard to understand where the 1/2 to 3/4" nose adj should go. I guess I dont know what happens if I decrease the spring distance from plate to plate. Isnt that the travel limit of the strut? And if I increase that isnt that increasing the strut height? Thx, Bill
p.s. there is a 1/2to 5/8" nub on the bottom of the strut cart. is that there so you can put some kinda washer there you think?
Strut questions?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
First, you need to measure the distance between upper and lower spring plate of the old strut and cartridge assembly....when the strut is fully assembled. That distance iswhat allows the "nose-high" attitude of the front end. On the new ones, you need to decrease the distance between the top and bottom plates by about 3/4".
The spacer must be under the bearing cone so that it does not meet the top spring plate. Without it, the bearing will not turn, will bend and wear on the spring plate.
Unless you had stock oil struts, they should have had centering rings. They can usually be modified and re-used. If not, they can be swiped from almost any strut that has the same cartridge body diameter. If they are too short and leave a gap between the top of the centering ring and the strut cap...use a large washer. Ray
The spacer must be under the bearing cone so that it does not meet the top spring plate. Without it, the bearing will not turn, will bend and wear on the spring plate.
Unless you had stock oil struts, they should have had centering rings. They can usually be modified and re-used. If not, they can be swiped from almost any strut that has the same cartridge body diameter. If they are too short and leave a gap between the top of the centering ring and the strut cap...use a large washer. Ray
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Strut Cart. Measurements
Hey Ray, thanks for the reply! I have the measurement since I still have one of the original factory struts still assembled. So the measurement is when the strut rod is all the way extended since the spring would extend it in the assembled form. So then I am actually compressing the spring some in a way?. I can hardy keep the Koni's rod all the way extended by hand since they are so smooth and react to the littlish pressure on them and if you try to pull the rod out it seems to react and slows the movement. I cant wait to see them installed and working. They are so much much better reacting then the Gabriel nos cart. I was trying to work with! It have writing on the top of the strut that says "Heavy turn and a arrow to the right" then Made in Holland 82P-1832 Special"D" 101.
It looks like the top has a slip flanged peice that has the seal in it that is held by large tanged or bend edges. I'll have to see it that peice moves to adjust the tension. Thanks again for the help! Bill
It looks like the top has a slip flanged peice that has the seal in it that is held by large tanged or bend edges. I'll have to see it that peice moves to adjust the tension. Thanks again for the help! Bill
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raygreenwood
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- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Struts
Hey Ray, I read it three times easy! Think I got it; you push the rod all the way down then it engages with a cam on the bottom then you can turn it up to 5 times(1/2 turns) either way till it stops then you raise it a little and it disengages with the cam on the bottom. Should I set it soft or firm?
Hey, I measured the rod(fully extended) on the original strut assemble to the taper and it was 10", on the Gabriel it was 9" and the Koni is 8". So does that mean the original had better travel? Thanks, Bill
Hey, I measured the rod(fully extended) on the original strut assemble to the taper and it was 10", on the Gabriel it was 9" and the Koni is 8". So does that mean the original had better travel? Thanks, Bill
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Actually, you need to be careful here. The original struts...did they have a bushing or spacr ring that slipped down onto a knurled portion on the step in the rod? What you may have is that the original struts were correct for the car. There were actually 3 different strut cartridge assemblies from the factory.
Later, after market struts were made..to fit either one of the late 411 and early 412 style. They were the same, except for the addition of a step spacer that slid down the shaft to sit on the step. Thats becasue the spacer in the bump stop was different.
The late 412 used a totally different rod. It does not have quite as long of a step on the pin. It looked more like a normal strut cartridge. Which ones did you originally have...and what did you get from Koni? Measure the old strut rod...fully extended...from the cartridge body to the step...where the rod srops to 1/2 diameter. Then measure the length o0n the 1/2 diameter portion of the rod. Do this on the koni's too...then get back to me...I can then tell you what you have...and how it needs to be spacered. Hopefully you have the right cartridges. Ray
Later, after market struts were made..to fit either one of the late 411 and early 412 style. They were the same, except for the addition of a step spacer that slid down the shaft to sit on the step. Thats becasue the spacer in the bump stop was different.
The late 412 used a totally different rod. It does not have quite as long of a step on the pin. It looked more like a normal strut cartridge. Which ones did you originally have...and what did you get from Koni? Measure the old strut rod...fully extended...from the cartridge body to the step...where the rod srops to 1/2 diameter. Then measure the length o0n the 1/2 diameter portion of the rod. Do this on the koni's too...then get back to me...I can then tell you what you have...and how it needs to be spacered. Hopefully you have the right cartridges. Ray
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Strut rod measurements
Hey Ray, my original rod was 10" to the step down and from there to the end is 2-5/8". The Koni rod is 8" to the step down and 4" from there to the end. The gabriel is 9" and 4-3/4". Just for reference. My original strut assemble had the top spring plate first on the rod taper then a 1" spacer then the bottom bearing cone then the rubber disc under the strut mount plate, the mount with the 2 studs opposite one stud, then the center bushing that goes in the center of the bearing and the top dish and then the strut nut. Thanks for the help, Bill
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
OK...heres what you have.
The original unit was straight late model 412.
The gabrial was a universal aftermarket set. They usually come with a 3/4" spacer that slips down over the rod to the step. With the spacer, it fits 412 with the late assymettrical bushing. Without the spacer, it fits the early 411 and 412 with the symmetrical bonded bushing. The Koni, will work....but you need to use the spacer that pops out of the bonded bump stop in either a 411 or 412 early. That spacer will allow the rod to effectively be about a 9.5 or 10" length to the step. They can only be used on the 412 with late bushings in this manner.
If you use the 8" rod without more bushing on the step...which means under the top spring plate, the spring for the strut will be very compressed AND, the front end will be 2" lower. Thats pretty low. That will also be a little too low in my opinion. Just be sure you speacre it to keep the stock top and bottom spring plate distance....minus 3/4"-1" max...to bring the front end level with the rear. Ray
The original unit was straight late model 412.
The gabrial was a universal aftermarket set. They usually come with a 3/4" spacer that slips down over the rod to the step. With the spacer, it fits 412 with the late assymettrical bushing. Without the spacer, it fits the early 411 and 412 with the symmetrical bonded bushing. The Koni, will work....but you need to use the spacer that pops out of the bonded bump stop in either a 411 or 412 early. That spacer will allow the rod to effectively be about a 9.5 or 10" length to the step. They can only be used on the 412 with late bushings in this manner.
If you use the 8" rod without more bushing on the step...which means under the top spring plate, the spring for the strut will be very compressed AND, the front end will be 2" lower. Thats pretty low. That will also be a little too low in my opinion. Just be sure you speacre it to keep the stock top and bottom spring plate distance....minus 3/4"-1" max...to bring the front end level with the rear. Ray
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Strut measurement help
Hey Ray, thanks for the help! Maybe I'll get a strut assembled this week,lol!! I have a 1-1/2" spacer but the inside dia is bigger then the rod so I cut a peice of copper pipe that fits inside so I'm trying to find a better spacer thats the right inside dia. I might just use the copper pipe and solder it in or use some permitex on it so it wont rust together.
Thanks again! Bill
Thanks again! Bill
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Strut together?
Hey Ray, actually got one strut assembled! Yeah! I didnt think the spring was gonna compress enough at first to get it together but it did.
I think I have the strut nut on far enough; it went down with about 1/4"
of the threads extending above the nut. The nut felt like it hit a solid point
but that doesnt make sense since there should be alot more if you subtract the nut thickness from the thread area.? I didnt get 3/4" off the total spring measurement just a little over 1/2". But I'm happy to get it together. How free should the mount be on the strut? Should it spin very easy or with a little friction? I didnt have one of those special sockets for the top nut but my oxygen sensor socket worked with a hex key. Slow but worked! Thanks again, Bill
p.s. now to open the other original strut, should have just changed the boots and left them original,lol!
p.s. I think I figured out why only 1/4" on the top of the nut, it must be because of the bushing in the bearing....,lol..
I think I have the strut nut on far enough; it went down with about 1/4"
of the threads extending above the nut. The nut felt like it hit a solid point
but that doesnt make sense since there should be alot more if you subtract the nut thickness from the thread area.? I didnt get 3/4" off the total spring measurement just a little over 1/2". But I'm happy to get it together. How free should the mount be on the strut? Should it spin very easy or with a little friction? I didnt have one of those special sockets for the top nut but my oxygen sensor socket worked with a hex key. Slow but worked! Thanks again, Bill
p.s. now to open the other original strut, should have just changed the boots and left them original,lol!
p.s. I think I figured out why only 1/4" on the top of the nut, it must be because of the bushing in the bearing....,lol..
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Hey Guest
Hey Guess, dont know your email address? What picture would you like?
Hope I can help! Have you looked at Ray's past post on his set-ups and have you looked at the cart. available at www.classicgarage.com sorry but I think I got the last set of Konis.! I have a pair of NOS Gabriels but dont have the gland washers for them and like Ray has said NOS is still old seals?.. If I were to do it again and my original struts were intact I would just do the dust boot and do the rest of the front end parts.! Thx Bill
Hope I can help! Have you looked at Ray's past post on his set-ups and have you looked at the cart. available at www.classicgarage.com sorry but I think I got the last set of Konis.! I have a pair of NOS Gabriels but dont have the gland washers for them and like Ray has said NOS is still old seals?.. If I were to do it again and my original struts were intact I would just do the dust boot and do the rest of the front end parts.! Thx Bill
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Strut Measurement
Hey, man was I off base with keeping the original struts intact, since I finished the other strut today I forgot about all the black crud that was in the fluid!! Wow was there alot in the tube but the seal was still holding pressure,lol! Those originals were a sweet peice of engineering! So I got the other strut together but the total spring measurement is a little different, just a 1/16". Do you think this is just the springs need to seat in the plate grooves better? Both nuts are tight and the mounts spin on the rod.
Thanks again for the help, Bill
p.s. I think I captured most of the fluid from this strut and I'm gonna get the cc measurement cup out to see the total but I need to screen out as much of the crud. How much do you think I should add to the cc's for lose? Just wanted to get a close idea!
Thanks again for the help, Bill
p.s. I think I captured most of the fluid from this strut and I'm gonna get the cc measurement cup out to see the total but I need to screen out as much of the crud. How much do you think I should add to the cc's for lose? Just wanted to get a close idea!
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Be very careful in how much you add. You must have just the right amount. Too much...and it will literally blow fluid everywhere...and the strut will be rock hard. These are truely recirculating hydraulic struts. A work of art really. Try using some of the synthetic mineral hydraulic spirits like Audi uses for its central hydraulic system. it must be very thin...and very low temperature in range. If it gets thick...it will totally change the valving...and give nearly intolerable and dangerous handling. Ray
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Thanks Ray!
Hey Ray, I was just trying to get a estimated amount in case I find a set of old strut tubes. You havent ever found the actual amount they spec.
for the originals? My old parts are probably not usable but they are such nice peices I'm gonna try and play with them. I'll bet the amount of fluid and type can be very scary to play with. I remember messing with the fluid and amount in my motorcycle front forks and that was scary! Just a few cc's and the whole system changes. I cant wait to get the Koni strut set up in the car since they are together now! Thanks for all the help with the setup!! Bill
for the originals? My old parts are probably not usable but they are such nice peices I'm gonna try and play with them. I'll bet the amount of fluid and type can be very scary to play with. I remember messing with the fluid and amount in my motorcycle front forks and that was scary! Just a few cc's and the whole system changes. I cant wait to get the Koni strut set up in the car since they are together now! Thanks for all the help with the setup!! Bill