Electromotive?????
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ray greenwood
- Posts: 1941
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:01 am
Electromotive?????
Sorry I just got my brain in gear. You will be using the complete TEC-3 injection...on the the type 4 D-jet induction and injector system...right? Got it. I thought you were speaking strictly of the ignition. Ray
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CA. 73 1.7
Electromotive?????
Thank you all again for the info.
Mueller, does your MS system fire the injestors in pairs like the D-Jet or does it fire them all seperatly? Have you had many problems with your system? Did you use the old injectors or did you need different ones? I havent heard much about this system so i will be looking into it more. Thank you
Ray, i would be using a complete system. It is almost pointless to change only the ignition system (my opnion)if you cant upgrade the dist as its needed for the factory FI. Also you may know this. Does using a stronger, Higher energy ignition system cause a hotter running engine. If you can burn more fuel you make more power, but do you also run hotter? How does your knology system run on your car. Pros/cons?
Thanks again
Mueller, does your MS system fire the injestors in pairs like the D-Jet or does it fire them all seperatly? Have you had many problems with your system? Did you use the old injectors or did you need different ones? I havent heard much about this system so i will be looking into it more. Thank you
Ray, i would be using a complete system. It is almost pointless to change only the ignition system (my opnion)if you cant upgrade the dist as its needed for the factory FI. Also you may know this. Does using a stronger, Higher energy ignition system cause a hotter running engine. If you can burn more fuel you make more power, but do you also run hotter? How does your knology system run on your car. Pros/cons?
Thanks again
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ray greenwood
- Posts: 1941
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:01 am
Electromotive?????
Yes on one hand, burning more fuel/air mixture does cause more overall heat. It should not be too much as long as the ratio of fuel to air is still correct...ie: not too lean. This would be termed, I suppose an efficency upgrade, since you are running the same air fuel mixture, but simply putting more volume of it through the engine by designing in better flow...like bigger displacement, better valves, head porting etc. There are practical limits as to how much extra heat the given cooling system can get rid of. If the engine gets too large...you need more cooling.
Really hot ignitions are nothing but good for the type 4. From the factory, they were poorly ignited. This is actually a big cause of poor running and some overheating, as you will be working that pedal harder to work the engine harder to produce HP it is missing from wasting most of the fuel. Because they are poorly ignited, most people find better performance by running them a little lean...and artificially raising thermal efficiency in a system that just does not have the spark to ignite all of its fuel when the mixture is set normally. We know what that gets you...heat.
Usually a hotter ignition will actually allow you to run slightly richer fuel mixtures and keep you running cooler.
There are actually a handfull of improvements you can do to the stock D-jet distributor. (1) shim the axial movement at the drive dog to get rid of slop..big help. (2) take the slop out of the spring mounting loops and the counterweight pivot holes...big improvement! (3) have new bushings made to take out radial slop, of which there is not too much on a new distributor to start with. It was overall a good factory distributor. Much better than a 009 and as good as an 050 in accuracy.
I had been working on finding the correct size ball bearings to really clean this distributor up. Had to shelve that project for a while. Also...I am looking into mounting trigger points in a mallory dist.
The above 3 things really helped stabilize idle and advance. Tuning to the vacume unit can be done by using the adjustable advance unit that came on 411/412/914...arm # 917. Also you can change the springs in it...swap around. That helped. The above 3 things also helped the accuracy of the injector triggers.
When I get my engine back in the car in september...I will be using a new distributor trigger cam that allow nearly sequential injection. Actually...it is almost a combination of CIS and paired injection. The injector enable "windows" will be shortened and re-spaced to allow all 4 injectors..even firing in pairs...to have primary injection during at least some point of their intake valve opening cycle. This will cause less available time for firing..but that will be made up for with a "bump" injection out of sequence and a slight rise in fuel pressure overall.
For the most part...out of sequence injection, on stock D-jet causes no adverse problems, but the higher you tune the system...in all respects, especially with better ignitions and work to the MPS...the more the deficiency in injection timing becomes visible...and the more benefeits from properly timed injections become visible.
The nology system works very well. I had just put it on mine right before I screwed up my cam. It "feels" like about 10 HP. Its mostly in throttle response. It allowed about 2% richer fuel mixture, and picked up about 2 MPG on hwy. Very nice. I have installed it on 4 other peoples cars in the past. I know a further 4-5 people who have installed it. Several of them had problems. The only problems are...and this is with any high energy ignition...is that they got sloppy or used poor plugs. This system uses a large capacitive discharge coil mounted in the middle of each spark plug wire. The wire itself is also a spiral wound insulated coil. They are 10mm diameter. Each wire has a 8-10mm ground strap wire coming from it. The grounding must be squeeky clean...or you lose gobs of power. The mounting and insulation on the sparkplug itself must be excellent...or the same happens. The power connection must be constant and have no spikes. You cannot have it hooked to the coil. I reccommend the coils they sell with the units...very clean. The best spark plugs to use with it are silver (Beru, NGK) they must be non-resistor...which is why you cannot use the Bosch Silbers. The silver sparkplugs...which are the lowest resistance full sized electrode plugs made...and the extreme low resistance of the wires, high speed discharge of the coils..like 2-3 microseconds give a spark with the silver plugs about the size of your thumbnail...no kidding. I use Bosch W7DTC triple electrodes when I first put it in. It gave me a spark about half the size of the silver plugs...but more consistant. It was about 1/4-3/8" in diameter and bright blue with green edges (copper nickle plugs). Great system. Ray
Really hot ignitions are nothing but good for the type 4. From the factory, they were poorly ignited. This is actually a big cause of poor running and some overheating, as you will be working that pedal harder to work the engine harder to produce HP it is missing from wasting most of the fuel. Because they are poorly ignited, most people find better performance by running them a little lean...and artificially raising thermal efficiency in a system that just does not have the spark to ignite all of its fuel when the mixture is set normally. We know what that gets you...heat.
Usually a hotter ignition will actually allow you to run slightly richer fuel mixtures and keep you running cooler.
There are actually a handfull of improvements you can do to the stock D-jet distributor. (1) shim the axial movement at the drive dog to get rid of slop..big help. (2) take the slop out of the spring mounting loops and the counterweight pivot holes...big improvement! (3) have new bushings made to take out radial slop, of which there is not too much on a new distributor to start with. It was overall a good factory distributor. Much better than a 009 and as good as an 050 in accuracy.
I had been working on finding the correct size ball bearings to really clean this distributor up. Had to shelve that project for a while. Also...I am looking into mounting trigger points in a mallory dist.
The above 3 things really helped stabilize idle and advance. Tuning to the vacume unit can be done by using the adjustable advance unit that came on 411/412/914...arm # 917. Also you can change the springs in it...swap around. That helped. The above 3 things also helped the accuracy of the injector triggers.
When I get my engine back in the car in september...I will be using a new distributor trigger cam that allow nearly sequential injection. Actually...it is almost a combination of CIS and paired injection. The injector enable "windows" will be shortened and re-spaced to allow all 4 injectors..even firing in pairs...to have primary injection during at least some point of their intake valve opening cycle. This will cause less available time for firing..but that will be made up for with a "bump" injection out of sequence and a slight rise in fuel pressure overall.
For the most part...out of sequence injection, on stock D-jet causes no adverse problems, but the higher you tune the system...in all respects, especially with better ignitions and work to the MPS...the more the deficiency in injection timing becomes visible...and the more benefeits from properly timed injections become visible.
The nology system works very well. I had just put it on mine right before I screwed up my cam. It "feels" like about 10 HP. Its mostly in throttle response. It allowed about 2% richer fuel mixture, and picked up about 2 MPG on hwy. Very nice. I have installed it on 4 other peoples cars in the past. I know a further 4-5 people who have installed it. Several of them had problems. The only problems are...and this is with any high energy ignition...is that they got sloppy or used poor plugs. This system uses a large capacitive discharge coil mounted in the middle of each spark plug wire. The wire itself is also a spiral wound insulated coil. They are 10mm diameter. Each wire has a 8-10mm ground strap wire coming from it. The grounding must be squeeky clean...or you lose gobs of power. The mounting and insulation on the sparkplug itself must be excellent...or the same happens. The power connection must be constant and have no spikes. You cannot have it hooked to the coil. I reccommend the coils they sell with the units...very clean. The best spark plugs to use with it are silver (Beru, NGK) they must be non-resistor...which is why you cannot use the Bosch Silbers. The silver sparkplugs...which are the lowest resistance full sized electrode plugs made...and the extreme low resistance of the wires, high speed discharge of the coils..like 2-3 microseconds give a spark with the silver plugs about the size of your thumbnail...no kidding. I use Bosch W7DTC triple electrodes when I first put it in. It gave me a spark about half the size of the silver plugs...but more consistant. It was about 1/4-3/8" in diameter and bright blue with green edges (copper nickle plugs). Great system. Ray
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Mueller
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:01 am
Electromotive?????
The MS can fire all injectors or two banks.
I have mine setup to run exactly like the factory L-Jet, which fires all four injectors everytime the coil fires a plug.
I am using the factory 1.8 injectors on my 2.0 which seems to be fine for now. They are rated for 37hp each (148hp total)
I have set of 2.0 injectors, but I have to clean them up and the 1.8 are brand new rebuilt units so why change them if they work?
The reason you have not heard much about the MS is that it's only been around for less than a year and it's strictly a do it yourself item. You have to solder the board together and do all the wiring to the motor and injectors. Programming is not too bad since it is Windoze based. An O2 sensor or dyno will help in tuning it.
The biggest downfall to the MS is that it only controls fuel and most people would rather have a system that can do both fuel and ignition. For the price and what it can do, I can live with that one "problem" if you even consider it a problem.
I have mine setup to run exactly like the factory L-Jet, which fires all four injectors everytime the coil fires a plug.
I am using the factory 1.8 injectors on my 2.0 which seems to be fine for now. They are rated for 37hp each (148hp total)
I have set of 2.0 injectors, but I have to clean them up and the 1.8 are brand new rebuilt units so why change them if they work?
The reason you have not heard much about the MS is that it's only been around for less than a year and it's strictly a do it yourself item. You have to solder the board together and do all the wiring to the motor and injectors. Programming is not too bad since it is Windoze based. An O2 sensor or dyno will help in tuning it.
The biggest downfall to the MS is that it only controls fuel and most people would rather have a system that can do both fuel and ignition. For the price and what it can do, I can live with that one "problem" if you even consider it a problem.