Type 1 vs. Type 4

[dan]

>>>The common thread to all these arguments is that<<<

Type 4 engines are well suited to small horsepower because the lousy head design doesn't flow, with poor reliability because of the constant head cracking... also due to the lousy factory head design.

Type 1 engines are well suited to all race and street car applications, the heads are far superior to type 4 heads in both performance and reliability... parts are a lot cheaper, with much better availability and far more choices.

>>>and since when does any type 1 have a <<<stock type 1 COUNTERWEIGHTED crank >>>?<<<

???



dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

[Alexander]

I am sorry Dan but I do not get what you are saying.

You can build a nice 2.4 T4 very mild and it will still have 170-180hp even with shitty flowing heads. If you are that stubbern on the T1 against T4 thread I suggest buying a plane ticket to Germany. You can make the T4 heads flow and last.
You compare something that is well established in the US (T1) to something that is starting to grow here (T4). After you come back from Germany try to compare again.
Low power T4s???? I do not think so.

You are right about the price tag on the motors. Oliver already mentioned that there were aftermarket heads for the T4 as well. One motor with those heads dynoed at 257hp normally aspirated and new heads have been developed by Remmele that I am sure will prove themselfes to be very good. Performance Technology is developing a head as well.
Would they do that if the T4 would be for small horsepower motors????

Everybody already agrees that the T1 is better suited for drag racing.
What do you want to hear? T4 sucks?
What about the Pauter heads that you can stick onto a T4?

What do you base your arguments on.....someone telling you all the T4 stuff is crap? Talk to some tuners that play with the T4 all the time.

[Tom Notch]

Now, Now , leave Dan alone, he is entitled to his views. We shouild show respect to his views out of common courtesy. But he won't force his narrow views on me. Just pay no attention to his jabs and maybe he will desist his crusade.

------------------
Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

[Victor H]

Dan,
Like you I have been a life-long type 1 fan. However, I respect what the type 4 guys are doing and think what they have to offer is pretty cool. Why do we need to make such a big deal about these differences? There are no perfect engines, each is a compromise between different characteristics the engineers were considering. Both design types have their strengths and weaknesses. That doesn't make one better than the other. Each of us make choices about what we want and what we are willing to compromise, so why make an issue out of this like "us versus them." Perhaps your efforts might be better directed toward all the Yukons, Explorers and Navigators out there. We're all part of the VW family so lets try to support each other.
Cheers

[dan]

>>>What do you base your arguments on.....someone telling you all the T4 stuff is crap? Talk to some tuners that play with the T4 all the time.<<<

well, some of the people i have talked to about type 4 heads are experts in the field; todd at rimco, for instance, how many hundreds of type 4 heads has he seen? "they are all cracked"

how many of you have worked with hundreds of type 4 heads?

how many of you have talked at length with fred simpson about the deficiences of the type 4 head?

i like how you guys are all defending the type 4, but i sure don't understand why you refuse to admit the reality of it.

the bottom line is that until these pie-in-the-sky aftermarket heads show up, and are proven on the street, people running type 4's will have to live with the worst heads the vw factory ever produced.

so how can you people claim the type 4 is so reliable when the heads are always cracking? ph-leeze!

lets be honest about that, o.k.?


dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

[Cpt Zoomy]

Hey dan, why not register on the forums?

[dan]

>>>We're all part of the VW family so lets try to support each other.<<<

i hear what you are saying, victor.

however, i think it's much more important to educate people on the potential problems of a platform first.

for instance, there are vw newbies who want a performance motor, maybe they heard the type 4 hype, which platform should they commit to? we just had someone on the clf ask that question.

shouldn't he know about the type 4 hydraulic lifter problems? how they apparently go flat really easily, then take a long time to pump back up? i've heard that there are people on the type 2 list who are complaining that if you park on a hill for a couple of days, your lifters will take significant running time to pump back up... are these things true?

if they are, shouldn't vw people know about it so that they can make an informed decision on building either a type 1 or a type 4??


dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

[JohnConnolly]

there is a place for BOTH the T-1 and T-4. I have been modifying both (including doing T-4----T-1 conversions before many "experts" had ever discovered the T-4) for over 15 years.

The Type 1 is more suited for high power, since the heads don't leak as much (stud spacing, and a lack of head rigidity).

The type 1 still has it's share of problems. There's already a filter on the T-4 (don't pay $100 for a "kit" to add one). T-4s can easily change PR tubes and seals in the car. You have a hydraulic option on the T-4 (the T-1 hydraulics suck). T-4s already have ratio rockers (1.3:1),and better rocker shafts and oiling systems. T-4s have better main bearings (my T-1 race engines all use T-4 bearings; there IS a reason (bigger and stronger) for a stronger crank. 5 bolts on the flywheel, so you can use "normal" tools to torque it. Larger clutch, for less pedal pressure and still lots of grip.

You can't run a type 1 at over 130hp for an extended time because the sucker will overheat and self destruct. Dan, the power output of an engine doesn't mean it can MAINTAIN that power output for a while. The T-1 cooling system is designed for 60hp tops. You can push it to 90hp, and by adding a T-4 oil cooler (gee, where did that come from?) and maybe another cooler (like you can't do that to a T-4), keep it somewhat cool. But still, the limit is under 120hp. The fin area on the heads is too small on the T-1, and it will overheat in short order if you push it. The T-4 has it's problems, but it also has it's strengths; cooling fin area is one of them. Why did VW change to the T-4 engine in 72' in their bus? It's not even pushed at 150hp EXTENDED output (though the T-4 exhaust port and header fitment sucks). LARGE displacement on a T-4 is cake, you are pushing it at 2.4L on a T-1. Why are all the FAT engines T-4s for off road (if not H2O cooled)? EXTENDED power output. Their engines would lose if the race was 5 miles, but they are not 5 mile races, they are 200-1000, and in that category, the T-4 is superior.

My point is that both engines have their fans (and critics), but both have strengths and weaknesses. Not everyone races 1/4 mile at a time, and it's ridiculous to "slam" the T-4 soley using the quarter mile as the benchmark.

Most of the guys "here" are going to the T-4 for a FLAT torque curve and long engine life, which the T-4 engine matches very well with (better than the T-1). Some are doing it just to have something different; it's ridiculous to slam them because they feel differently than you do, it's an opinion thing. There are no "facts" to win the T-1 over T-4 argument. Cracked heads on a T-4? While even I use the expression, "There are two kinds of T-4 heads, new ones and cracked ones", it's because of the application, not the design. If the T-4 head is run in a T-1 sedan, they don't get hot, and don't crack.

How long would a T-1 head last putting out 90hp extended power? Not long,and I assure you it's cracked under 5K miles! Did you know that the reliability of a 1 ton Dually Chevy PU is much less than a 1/2 ton? Does this mean you should use the 1/2 ton to tow your motorhome? NOT! You have to view the APPLICATION of the part in question when you refer to it's "reliabilty". You are comparing apples to oranges on reliability when you point out the problems on the T-4 engine.

However, the T-4 is not for everyone, they are expensive, and parts are more specialized and harder to come by (this is changing rapidly). Even the engineering of putting that engine INTO a T-1 requires some thinking). Exhaust systems? Currently a problem, but solutions are popping up as the engine's popularity increases.

Like I said, I've been around the T-4 scene for a LONG time (I built a turbo T-4 in 87', and many 103mm bore engines then too), and found out what worked and what didn't.

We (Aircooled.Net) carry stock and HP parts for the T-1 and T-4, and there IS an application for each one. To blanket statement say that "one engine is "better" than the other" is rubbish, it depends on what you are using it for.

I really hope this clears up SOME of the misconceptions of this issue, and ends some of the arguing; both sides have their points, but EVERYONE is entitled to an OPINION either way.

BTW Dan, see you at Sac! Bringing hats for sale?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dan:
<B>>>>We're all part of the VW family so lets try to support each other.<<<

i hear what you are saying, victor.

however, i think it's much more important to educate people on the potential problems of a platform first.

for instance, there are vw newbies who want a performance motor, maybe they heard the type 4 hype, which platform should they commit to? we just had someone on the clf ask that question.

shouldn't he know about the type 4 hydraulic lifter problems? how they apparently go flat really easily, then take a long time to pump back up? i've heard that there are people on the type 2 list who are complaining that if you park on a hill for a couple of days, your lifters will take significant running time to pump back up... are these things true?

if they are, shouldn't vw people know about it so that they can make an informed decision on building either a type 1 or a type 4??


dan
oceanstreetvideo.com</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[moggy]

Well said Mr Connolly, agreed totally with everything you said. I've had both T1 and 2 T4 motors in my bug and with my limited experience (only 7years using T4 motors in bugs) I do agree that the heads aren't great. Most of the secondhand heads I looked at using for my engines were cracked, and even when I found a good pair for my first 2.0l and spruced them up with new valves and a three angle valve job, it still managed to drop a seat and distroy the engine 4 years after the initial build (it was a 100hp daily driver that also took me around France for a holiday once, never moaned once not even in 100degree heat down in Monte Carlo. That was 2yrs before the end, by the way). In my opinion the heads are definetely the achilies heal of the T4 motor, in my main advice to people is don't skimp on heads, buy new and get an expert in T4 engine to do any work on the heads.

I agree with you on the flat torque curve though, check out mine, hardly goes under 180.

[moggy]

Ooops forgot to post the power graph.

[dan]

>>>aren't great. Most of the secondhand heads I looked at using for my engines were cracked, and even when I found a good pair for my first 2.0l and spruced them up with new valves and a three angle valve job, it still managed to drop a seat and distroy the engine 4 years after the initial build<<<

FINALLY someone is honest about how their type 4 heads performed... were those heads in a sedan when they died?

now how about some intelligent dialog from you type 4 people on exactly what it takes to make a type 4 head live? is there anybody out here that personally rebuilds type 4 heads that last???

thanks for the dyno graph, moggy, what is the size of the motor? stroke, bore, etc.


dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

[Steve Arndt]

Dan,
All Engle cams go flat.
That is like saying all Vanagon type hydro lifters blead down, go flat, whatever.
Blanket statements don't work well!
I have a 914 2.0 that has the original engine rebuilt only one time, five years ago. We did it with hydraulic lifters, and it works perfectly fine. It was parked over a year and took about 20 minutes with fresh oil to quiet down. Now they are 100% reliable.
Steve

[Tom Notch]

Ahhh, yes! Just more typical Dan stuff!

------------------
Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

[Steve Arndt]

Dan, this has been covered many times. I'll do a quick search and relay the results. . .
here ya go: http://shoptalkforums.com/bbs/NonCGI/Fo ... 00690.html


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dan:
<B>
now how about some intelligent dialog from you type 4 people on exactly what it takes to make a type 4 head live? is there anybody out here that personally rebuilds type 4 heads that last???


dan
oceanstreetvideo.com</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[JohnConnolly]

Dan, calm down.

Type 4 hydraulics don't "go flat" unless you don't drive the thing for a week, and haven't changed your oil in forever. I didn't address it because it's an old wives tale! Tell guys having problems to buy good german lifters instead of the "budget" ones, that's a start.

the "single port full throttle" engines are a prime example. They DO run for hours on end reliably, but they aren't putting out 130hp, are they? I can easily build a 500hp (ok, not easily) engine with NO cooling system that doesn't overheat, because it's shut down before it gets hot. Furthermore, a street T-1 can put out 250hp, and not overheat. You aren't driving around full throttle with the brakes on all the time, are you? You drive most of the time using 10-20hp, which develops around 20hp WORTH OF HEAT the cooling system must get rid of ;not a problem, even if your engine can put out 200+. The problem is if you run EXTENDED HP more than the cooling system can address, and that's where the T-1 is limited to 90hp, but the T-4 is 130-140 due to way more fin area. I seem to not be making myself clear, but I don't know how much more I can elaborate to make it easier.

"claiming that type 4 heads are o.k. because they may or may not crack in a sedan is totally weak... how many tens of thousands of type 1 heads have been run in buses without cracking?"

at what power output? 60hp? Cake. 120hp? Get your 200+hp engine and run it in the Mohave for an hour at full throttle. in 10 minutes the engine is toast. Why? Engine output is NOT the same as what the cooling system is capable of removing. Think of it as cooling "storage". You don't need ANY fins if you only run for 2 minutes. But, for EXTENDED output, you can't exceed the cooling capacity of the engine, or the engine temp rises, PERIOD. If the engine removes 60hp worth of heat (stock doghouse system), and you are putting out 250hp, you have 190hp that is not getting cooled off, and though you have a bit of a bubble to work with, your engine temps rise! It's simple thermodynamics (Who here has taken Thermo I and II?). I was a 4th year ME when I switched to EE, and have a good educational background to understand these concepts, though they appear simple here, some guys can't grasp heat in = heat out.

"i've put over 200,000 miles on bigger-than-stock type 1's... over 80,000 miles of that was on 2.1 liter type 1's, and THEY DID NOT OVERHEAT... "

200K miles full throttle? You obviously aren't reading what I'm saying. I routinely build 2.3+ engines that last a long time too, even with high compression (If you didn't know, Greg Ward is sponsored by us, and I have given him a LOT of his advice and knowledge on his engine to further his cause; ask him what HE thinks about my advice, not me). The key is how much power you are USING, not capable of. I said "130hp output" not 130hp capable. BIG difference. Run 140hp on a dyno for hours with a T-1 or a T-4 and then see which one lasts longer. I run T-1s on MY engines. My next one I'm planning on 350hp output. Can I sustain that? hell no! But it's only putting that out for 10 seconds at a crack, then it's back at an idle or 15hp rating, and the cooling system can catch up on the hot engine. BTW, my T-1s have never overheated since I learned the relationship of static compression and cam duration, so I have no idea where your "your engine's overheating" comment has come from. Where did you get the idea my engines overheat from? Please tell.

The Type 4 has more cooling capability, so it can be pushed harder and not break a sweat, more than the T-1. THAT is it's advantage (along with huge displacement). I'm not slamming the T-1 (why do I use them in my cars?), what I'm saying is there is a place for both, and you seem to be overlooking the obvious (cooling capability) differences.

Still friendly.

John

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dan:
<B>>>>You have a hydraulic option on the T-4 (the T-1 hydraulics suck). T-4s already have<<<

john, good buddy, you didn't address the problems with the type 4 hydraulic lifters going flat... how come?

>>>You can't run a type 1 at over 130hp for an extended time because the sucker will overheat and self destruct.<<<<

i've put over 200,000 miles on bigger-than-stock type 1's... over 80,000 miles of that was on 2.1 liter type 1's, and THEY DID NOT OVERHEAT... did it ever occur to you that maybe that giant compression you are always preaching could have been a factor in YOUR type 1's overheating??

beyond that, there are dozens of success stories on the clf that claim the opposite of what you are saying here... greg ward and ohio tom come to mind.

>>>somewhat cool. But still, the limit is under 120hp. The fin area on the heads is<<<

i put a turbo on the 2.0 liter motor i'm running now, and it still does not overheat... and it makes a LOT more than 120 h.p.

>>>and header fitment sucks). LARGE displacement on a T-4 is cake, you are pushing it at 2.4L on a T-1. Why are all the<<<

that is the reason to go with a type 4... you can build it really big, and end up with a stronger bottom end.

>>>FAT engines T-4s for off road (if not H2O cooled)? EXTENDED power output. Their engines would lose if the race was 5 miles, but they are not 5 mile races, they are 200-1000, and in that category, the T-4 is superior.<<<

at those same races are stock classes that are limited to single-port, stock type 1 configuration motors... those people run the same course as the type 4 people, with the pedal on the floor... their type 1's run for the entire season(110+ degree desert heat), and more.

>>>Most of the guys "here" are going to the T-4 for a FLAT torque curve and long engine life, which the T-4 engine matches very well with (better than the T-1).<<<

you know, i've tried to get some exact info out here on how the torque curve of a 2.0 type 4 is better than a 2.0 type 1, but nobody has been able to provide it... and vague references to shorter rods are not the answer.

do you have any facts to back up those claims?

claiming that type 4 heads are o.k. because they may or may not crack in a sedan is totally weak... how many tens of thousands of type 1 heads have been run in buses without cracking?

obviously, as you just proved, the type 1 head is far superior to the type 4 head... which is why i don't run type 4 stuff.

>>>BTW Dan, see you at Sac! Bringing hats for sale?<<<

i'll be there, buddy, and i got a hat for you if you need it!

thanks for the discussion,


dan
oceanstreetvideo.com </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>