the scoop on widening a beam

[dustymojave]

The beam tubes should NOT be plumb. The angle of the beam sets the caster. 5° would be a minimum to me.

No matter what steering system or wheels and tires you use, it MUST have steering limit stops to prevent the tires from hitting the side of the frame!

And considering your avatar in these forums showing the cart before the horse, I should tell you that in the late 70s/early 80s, I worked on producing a harness racing sulky of composite materials. Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Glass fiber with epoxy matrix with a rigid urethane foam core. Standard of the industry was 4130 steel tube sulky frame. Our composite sulky was 1/3 lighter and 1/3 lower cost and every horse that ran with one set a new personal best time. It was created to be safer in a crash because the steel tube when crashed kinks like a drinking straw and breaks off making a 6' long chisel point spear attached to the side of a tumbling 1500lb horse going about 40-45mph, while the composite is extremely difficult to break, and if it does it breaks completely blunt. Because it would have put the competition out of business, it was banned by all the US organizations in spite of safety considerations. OH...It was designed to follow the horse, not lead it.

[chuckput]

The beam tubes should NOT be plumb. The angle of the beam sets the caster. 5° would be a minimum to me.

No matter what steering system or wheels and tires you use, it MUST have steering limit stops to prevent the tires from hitting the side of the frame!

And considering your avatar in these forums showing the cart before the horse, I should tell you that in the late 70s/early 80s, I worked on producing a harness racing sulky of composite materials. Carbon fiber/Kevlar/Glass fiber with epoxy matrix with a rigid urethane foam core. Standard of the industry was 4130 steel tube sulky frame. Our composite sulky was 1/3 lighter and 1/3 lower cost and every horse that ran with one set a new personal best time. It was created to be safer in a crash because the steel tube when crashed kinks like a drinking straw and breaks off making a 6' long chisel point spear attached to the side of a tumbling 1500lb horse going about 40-45mph, while the composite is extremely difficult to break, and if it does it breaks completely blunt. Because it would have put the competition out of business, it was banned by all the US organizations in spite of safety considerations. OH...It was designed to follow the horse, not lead it.

Dusty, your story about your work on building a better Sulky is amazing. You never cease to amaze with the width and depth of your knowledge. Whatever happened to, "Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door?" It amazes me the number of times in history when profits and keeping political powers happy win out over safety. I also don't think Orange Crusher's avatar is so much about putting the cart before the horse as it is a nod towards Volkswagen's having their engines in the rear. Wait. . . does that mean VW and Porsche are putting the cart before the horse??? What is this world coming to???

[OrangeCrusher]

I took some time off from thinking about this and doing some fishing. I'm one of those people who's always working on something. I'd like to think I'm improving things but in hindsight sometimes not. I think a lot needs improving in this day and age and a lot of it is beyond my reach. I just paid $2.50 for 1 pint of chocolate milk on my way to work. I was spitting and sputtering the whole way out of the store as they didn't have prices on their items and I was pissed. That would have bought me a whole gallon a year ago. A lot of life isn't improving.
But I digress.

My rear end on this rig has no torsion bars. I went with air bags which I hate and two long shocks on each side. The bags do not provide a progressive suspension whatsoever and one side seems to cope better than the other. I run about 60 psi in them combined but have run as much as 90. There's the constant bleeding down all the time too which gets annoying. I've gotten into the habit of throwing a jack under the engine cage so that the rear end isn't on the floor- it takes about two days.


At one time I had quite a bit of rake on my front beam. I had to rework my frame clamps to push the top of the beam forward. After removing the aluminum rims I had on there (which I found out are called Cragar Super Trick wheels and are collectable) I think a lot of the geometry issues I was experiencing have disappeared. Now the only issue is I seem to not have much of a turning radius especially for a woodsbuggy. That last bit is kinda embarrassing.
I plan to add some kind of stop eventually, although my interest in working on this has dropped to zero. I've had it for sale for about a month. It's priced high and I haven't had any bites. I'd really rather be rid of it at this point. It turns out the offroad scene in Michigan has been abused somewhat the last ten years to the point the state has had enough. I blame a lot of the side by sides and jeeps that are bought by anyone with a pocket full of cash and then they go out without any care or concern and ruin it for the rest. I used to enjoy roaming around on fire roads and two tracks, but from what I hear that is heavily frowned upon now and will get you a ticket. I really think my energy for the kind of off-roading I used to do has disappeared. I'm old and my time is at a premium. Having the woodsbuggy in the shop and poking at it when I get the time is fun, but I really don't see myself getting out there and using it like I intended 15 years ago when I started the project and I would rather have the room it takes up.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

It is similar out here on the coastal dunes. Too many, most with loud exhaust and radios way too loud (when they can't hear others with loud exhaust and you can hear them for several blocks away, they can't safely hear others tearing through the same trails they are on) and too many not paying attention to others out there too. Since the side by sides came into the scene bad things got way worse.

We just got back from the dunes Sunday and the only thing that quieted things down was the series of storms that came in.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

OC, my blue buggy came with one version air-shocks which ended up almost causing me to flip over/endo at the bottom of a dune. I was new to VWs at the time, and they sounded like a good idea until the almost endo. I had them pumped up way too high (100#s at the time) for paddle tire clearance even though I had been warned about the air-shocks years before and all their bad possibilities they could have.

Air bags also have the potential of failing in several different ways and people I knew did have some of those failures.

Based on some of the things I figured out that resetting the pre-load was a good idea but that can be over-done too much also. Going from the stock 19°-20° to anything over ~26° is too much also.

As far as selling your rail, have you thought of making some temp mockup shocks out of tube and placing them in the rail to make the rail look like it would with everything in place allowing the potential buyers to sit in the rail. Looks do pay a lot during buying things as well as getting an idea of comfort and utility does.

Based on the pix you have a lot of good things there, but some people can visualize things easily while others aren't so good at it. A little work and a couple of bucks (or using scrap stuff) could have the potential of moving things forward.

For what it is worth...

Lee

[OrangeCrusher]

All a person would have to do is remove the dual shocks and mount a custom coil over on one of the shock bosses and pull the airbags out. That's it. I've sold some projects and I could buy coil overs now, but I'm really wanting that money to go to my baja which is more practical for me. Like I've said before, first world problems. lol I just sold an 83 Suzuki GS750ES I've had and been working on for 20 years. I'm much too attached to things. This woodsbuggy is good to go as it is, I'm just not satisfied because I know it could be better. What I need is a THIRD GARAGE where I can get it out of sight for another year while I focus on the baja and save some money for it... or sell it. Such a hard decision for me. There's so much of me in this thing. The shift box I designed. The reverse lockout mechanism I made. The gear shift linkage I cam up with. The exhaust manifold I fabricated. ect.ect. ugh. I'm pathetic and stubborn.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

As I said, some people are not like you and a lot of us and don't look at things like we do. Even if you tell them what could be done or what is needed it doesn't sink if for some reason. And then, of course, there is us not looking at things as they do . Sad but it is true!

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Orangecrusher, are you still playing with the idea of widening the front BJ beam and softening up the springing? There may be a way although I don't really suggest it.

This is a tease but not all of the information... There are several ways to soften the ride, but suspension stops should be installed also. There is another way which required messing with the upper beam and torsion bars.

One way to widen the beam would require you to have two BJ beams, 4 BJ front beam adjusters, 2 sets of torsion bars for a BJ beam a way of evenly cutting the two beam's tubes evenly off center and welding them up together at the adjuster's locations.

I have seen it down but again... I don't really suggest doing it.

Lee

[Wolfin]

One thing to consider, is the loss of turning radius from having a wider front end. A wider front end will require more area to turn around in. The front end on my Rail is eight inches wider than stock. It was done by cutting and welding two front end beams.. It has four grub screws and will soon have four adjusters. Sharp turns often require tricky maneuvering. On the other hand, It is very stable on trails and "feels good". It's also street legal so I drive it on the street quite a bit. I've run it down the Interstate at 100MPH+ and it tracked straight and true. The wider foot print also helps in the turns. Overall, I like it but do have to plan my turns.

[OrangeCrusher]

Im back to this problem. Ive done my homework on the rear end. Decided to order coilovers. 14" 2.0's with medium compression and med/light rebound. I'm at 840lbs on each wheel which is probably more like 760 without unsprung weight. I got a suggestion to run 350/400 spring rates but i don't think that is without the unsprung weight. Not sure if I'm going with King or taking a chance with FOA?
Having the rear finally 'work' will be a relief but i will be right back to my new tall front tires rubbing on the fame and my lack of turning radius. I either go with different tires or i start chopping that beam. I got a lot of irons in the fire with projects so I'm really not excited about doing another beam. It'd be nice if I could find a wide BJ beam to buy...