Electrical charging system issue

[Marc]

Your descriptions leave a bit to be desired. This part is particularly unenlightening since there have been two prior configurations, and from here I have no idea if the PO's was ever correct:

Red - Connected to the wire that used to be B+ on the reg

...If you're referring to the fat red wire that comes out under the back seat from the engine compartment, that was originally D+ between the generator and its regulator. It must be bonded to the fat red wire that goes into the main harness to deliver power to the front of the car. A third fat red wire should also go from this junction to the battery positive post; alternatively, a wire can be added from the alternator B+ stud over to the B+ stud on the starter solenoid (the circuit from there to the battery is then completed by the positive cable).

So the fact Green/Blue came disconnected must've been keeping the alt from charging... oh well Autozone already took it back and sent off for another. So looking at the '74 and up wiring diagram Green/Blue should be tied into D+ wire on the reg. That may have been where the empty splice was on the old connector I lobbed. Given the mess that is this wiring I didn't think much of it.

Since you're putting the regulator in the engine compartment, the blue wire from the warning lamp needs to be extended into there so that it can connect to the small red D+ wire between the regulator and alternator. The usual way of doing this when converting from generator is to reassign the green wire that was generator DF - simply butt-splice it to the blue one under the seat. If that splice wasn't made up, there'd be no continuity from the warning light to alternator D+, therefore no field-flash power available...so the alternator would be unlikely to work.

When I bought a new reg I bought a 3 prong, lobbed off both connectors and spliced them together. I was aiming to get it road worthy immediately and I could put connectors back on later. Still tucked away in the bay.

Probably OK, since only three wires are used on the 4-wire regulator. However the alternator housing needs to be have potential in common with the alternator body (ground). Mount it securely to the car body and/or connect a wire between the housing and the screw on top of the body of the alternator.

[foreverska]

Your descriptions leave a bit to be desired.

Well then let this substitute for a thousand of my words.

Probably OK, since only three wires are used on the 4-wire regulator. However the alternator housing needs to be have potential in common with the alternator body (ground).

Did you mean regulator housing needs to have potential in common?

[Marc]

Did you mean regulator housing needs to have potential in common?

Yes. Sorry, I didn't proofread well enough after making some edits. The alternator and external regulator have to share a common ground in order for the regulator to work properly.

The picture shows that all three fat red wires under the back seat are joined together as they should be, along with the 4th (smaller) red wire that feeds the rear window defogger relay. That part of your wiring should be OK as-is if the connection is sound and it's well-insulated.
It also shows the blue wire to the warning lamp spliced into the green wire which served as DF for the original generator; the other end of the green wire needs to join the (small red) D+ wire between the alternator and regulator in the engine compartment.
The brown wire was originally the ground lead between the generator housing and the generator regulator, and is completely superfluous now. Might come in handy someday if you add a gauge or tach, would save you from having to fish a new wire through the firewall for that function.

[foreverska]

So the gen light works for the first time since I've owned the car. Kinda stayed on for a second, gave it a little gas and it turned off and stayed off... until I pressed the gas. The gen light kinda flickers when I give it gas. As I'm wiring this though I realize I wired the gen light into the green wire of the regulator. Would that cause that? I guess it doesn't matter because I'll get out there tomorrow and fix it but for now, dinner.

[Marc]

...I wired the gen light into the green wire of the regulator. Would that cause that?...

Having never miswired one before, I couldn't say if this would be the resultant symptom - but odds are that it'll work correctly once you connect it to the red D+ wire where it belongs.


Avionics tech, huh?

[Piledriver]

Be nice.

They USAF were trying desperately to get out of any component level box fixing business 20+ years ago when I got out.
More jobs for civilians at depots, esp Warner Robbins AFB.

I'm sure the airlines etc were well past that point, even then.

OTOH the wiring diagram is pretty straightforward.
(just use a later current path diagram rather than try and translate the SpaghettiSystem versions)

[Marc]

Yeah, I'm aware...I was an ET in the Navy. We were taught the Six Step Troubleshooting procedure and even back in the `70s a standing joke was how the avionics "black box switchers" could stop at step 3 or 4 since they never had to actually fix anything. On a submarine there's only room for so many spares, you have to be able to repair what you have.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6784894/The ... -Procedure

[Piledriver]

Yeah, I'm aware...I was an ET in the Navy. We were taught the Six Step Troubleshooting procedure and even back in the `70s a standing joke was how the avionics "black box switchers" could stop at step 3 or 4 since they never had to actually fix anything. On a submarine there's only room for so many spares, you have to be able to repair what you have.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6784894/The ... -Procedure

Nice, I never saw that so well formalized, wish I had back in the day that for some folks that seemed stumped at step 1 or 2....

I'll call that and raise it with:
http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/

I have tried to find the unclassified parts my old USAF basic electronics and EW CDCs online with no luck, but the Navy NEETS self paced training manuals are very good substitutes for anyone looking to bone up their electronics skills.

They are taxpayer-funded, so public domain.

Now we just need to find you a header... Under the trans work for you?

[foreverska]

lol this whole thread.

Avionics these days is 90% box switching and 10% wiring. I know some electronics but that's mostly because I'm a ham radio operator. I aced our electronics class sleeping all the times they'd let me and a few times on my feet in the back of the class heh. On the flight line we didn't even have to troubleshoot most days. The jet throws out a PCOF (probable cause of failure) list. Our only sense of troubleshooting pride was trying to choose the right one the first time. Though if you did get it right it was usually chocked up to dumb luck.

Most wiring was fixing backshells that crew chiefs broke followed by repairing broken wires and in far and dead last place wire modification (removal, replacement, addition or splicing). I can't think of a time I did a butt splice in the line of duty.

Last night I got out there on the car, looked at my wires and saw green, green and green and that looked right. Didn't even consider a day and a half ago talking about the fact it had to go to red. Oh well now it's fixed and the light is working properly. I just got VR to HALL converters in today so no rest for the weary.

[Marc]

...Now we just need to find you a header... Under the trans work for you?

I do have pretty good ground clearance as you can see in my avatar pic, but don't really want to risk going below when there's so much space available topside (don't want to be a flat tire away from crushing the exhaust).
I think the Tri-Mil 3107 1⅝" system could be made to work if I tweaked the primary tubes to bring the collector down closer to horizontal; there's a guy advertising a new-used one on theSamba at a good price but he hasn't responded to a couple of emails I've sent. Don't really need 1⅝" for the stock motor that's in it now, but that's likely to change this winter ...I may break down and pay retail for a new one, but was hoping to save a few bucks if I could.
I've also considered just cobbling together four 1½" independent pipes like an old-school Formula Vee; I have half of one of those systems already (Chris apparently used the other side for raw materials for some custom system he was building) so I'd only need to build two pipes.

Last time you mentioned the NEETS materials I downloaded and burnt to CD in case Chris ever wanted to graduate from electrician to ET someday. I skimmed over the course and it does look quite good.

[foreverska]

Here we go again...

Alright so a few days ago I was driving to work and the gen light came on suddenly. As I slowed it dimmed and then at real low RPMs came on again. As I pulled away again it did the reverse. So I'm thinking the regulator went out. Next time I start the car the light is on and stays on. Measured across the poles with engine off, 13v. Turned the engine on and measured again, 13v. Rev it up, 13v. Light is on this whole time. I parked it for a few days but then drove it (don't judge me) to my cousin's house so I could use his tools on a different issue. On the way home I gave it some gusto and the light dimmed and eventually went out. Came back as I deceled. Did it again and the light dimmed but this time stayed out. When I got home I shut it down and measured the battery, 13v. Turned the key to electrical and the gen light is out... crap. Engine on 13v. Engine Rev 13v.

Sooo... IDK. I really don't know. The fact it doesn't go to 14v when revving seems to say alternator but the light shows seem to say something about the regulator.

[Marc]

Could be nothing more than worn brushes and/or dirty sliprings. I've seen a few alternators where the factory routing of a brush pigtail kept it from contacting its slipring long before it was truly "worn-out". Lift out the brushholder and peer down in at the sliprings - they should be shiny-bright copper color, not blackened/burnt....the brushes should be about equal in free length. Replacement brushes can be a little hard to find - sometimes you can take them from a more readily-available Rabbit brushholder assembly. An automotive electric specialty shop should have some in stock, if there's none nearby you may find something that'll work at a vacuum-cleaner repair shop

[Piledriver]

(real) hardware stores are a good source of emergency brushes.

Even the big box places might have some. Think vacuum cleaner/power tools.

Strange but true---you may be able to get the real thing through Autozone or OReallys
(or your local NAPA or FLAPS)

Might be time to give the commutator some love, don't use emery (wet or dry) sandpaper, it embeds itself and things will go away quickly. Even Scotchbrite works.

Belt not slipping? Not blowing oil on it?

Also: You are an optimist if you expect 14v unless you get in there and figure out how to adjust the contact points and spring tension (and the overvolt breaker coil, assuming they still make the old school solenoid style regs) without blowing it up. Anything much over 13v with the lights on is IMHO OK. Its a generator.

Buy a spare regulator....

[Marc]

...Its a generator....

Ummm, nope. Last time I checked there was no problem finding brushes for a Type I generator (11 004)...the issue is that there are several versions of the alternators and the brush-holder assemblies aren't interchangeable between all of them, so years ago many parts-sellers simply gave up on stocking anything.

...It's a 70 bug (Oct 69) with a 3pin 73 alt...

[Piledriver]

Ah, I should have started reading the thread from the top again... The under seat wiring should have registered.

Note if all you can find are a tad too big, graphite files/sands to shape easily.