front inside lift

snott · Post by **snott** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:11 am

is front wheel lift an american thing??????

ive been racing bugs for years and have never expiranced it. i was talking about this at my last race to a couple of other bug racers and they all said that they've never had it.

maybe you american guys need to take less speed into the corners as it sounds like your entering to fast and then oversteering the car causing it to lift and become unstable.

Mike T · Post by **Mike T** » Mon May 15, 2006 2:33 pm

In rear engine cars like the Beetle and Porsche 912/911 lifting the inside front tire in a corner is typically caused by too much front roll stiffnes, for example a front anti roll bar that is too stiff for the rest of the chassis setup. Mid engine cars can do it. Even front engine rwd cars can.

Typically it happens in autocrossing more than road racing too.

In SCCA Solo 2 stock class you are only permitted to meddle with the front swaybar, increase, reduce, add or subtract.

Perhaps your cars are more properly tuned with roll rates and spring/torsion bar settings.

Mike (more speed)T

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Tue May 23, 2006 6:44 am

I don't know what you're talking about.

You say I need more brakes?

volkswagen50 · Post by **volkswagen50** » Thu May 25, 2006 5:40 am

I swapped front bars on my super, from the stock3/4 bar to the bugpack 7/8" bar and am now lifting a wheel. I also took two seconds off of my times. I used to be 4 sec behind the class leaders in they're Mazda 3's and other hot machinery. Now I'm 2 or less. I still have room to play with suspension settings as this was only on the first weekend I had the new bar on. It's common to lift a wheel when the turns are hard and abrupt. Gentle rolling turns on a road course probobly won't see it. The Brits just don't push as hard!

Seriously, do they autocross in the UK?

snott · Post by **snott** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:32 am

do we autocross over here???mmmmm-we came up with the idea, although the irish are the best at it.
im quiet surprised you yanks are doing it!!! i thought you lot didnt like corners

us brits push hard but we just have a better driving style but we let the germans do all the work experimenting with set-ups etc then we apply it to our cars.

VWDragracer · Post by **VWDragracer** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:31 am

when my brother was autocrossing his 72 standard beetle he had the same issue. our "fix" wsa to weld a 3/4" piece of flat steel to the front sway bar (centered for those that need clarification) and then made a bracket to bolt it to teh front beam. this ISOLATED the left and right side from one another and did not affect the set up other than eliminating the inside tire lift

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:08 am

VWDragracer wrote:when my brother was autocrossing his 72 standard beetle he had the same issue. our "fix" wsa to weld a 3/4" piece of flat steel to the front sway bar (centered for those that need clarification) and then made a bracket to bolt it to teh front beam. this ISOLATED the left and right side from one another and did not affect the set up other than eliminating the inside tire lift

I've always been taught that a sway bar works by transferring effort from the outside tire to the inside tire, but hey, if it works.

VWDragracer · Post by **VWDragracer** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:27 pm

look at a super beetle front suspention. 2 bushings 1 per side. yes it allows the bar to still move but isolates to a degree thus eliminating "inside wheel lift"

TedzBug · Post by **TedzBug** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:07 pm

what about the same thought as a bracket welded or clamped to the swaybar in the center with an adjustable stop in both directions to limit the transferred movement??

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:40 pm

what about stiff front springs and NO sway bar.

crazy?

Brent Bousman · Post by **Brent Bousman** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:01 am

GC-
generally speaking (because you guys seem to be talking about strut front And torsion bar front) if you increase the front spring rate the front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or reducing oversteer.
But possibly this effect is reduced since you want to remove the swaybar. BTW- it's not that crazy.

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:16 pm

the reason i suggested it was just because that's effectively what VWDragRacer's fix amounted to. after that mod, the sway bar is no longer a sway bar, it's an extra spring - independently acting on each wheel.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:03 pm

Not Crazy! I hope.

I removed my front whiteline bar recently and my 69 Ghias handling improved. I'm running short 30 mm rear bars. The stiff rear seems to eliminate front lift. I'm also running stiffer front leafs (CB).

My understanding is it is preferable to tune your ride with spring rates and to use anti-sway bars to fine tune the ride. Large sway bars are usualy a sign that the spring rates are not ideal. I read this someplace and it made sense.

The 30mm bars in the rear do help the handling and the front lift cornering but at speed, if they get compressed, the shocks can't control the rebound. It feels very strange hiting bumps at high speed. I'm thinking of going down a size or two.

In all the pictures with the wheel lift the rear suspension is compressed.

Autocross next weekend!!! I'm excited!

Ozzie · Post by **Ozzie** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:25 am

I've just thrown down for the matching Whiteline to go on the rear. My limited auto-x experience has never seen the rear break loose. I do have a plowing prob, but I started my work from the front to the rear. The front is pretty siff & bouncy with the tight poly bushings and the KYB gas shocks. Stock springs up front. I couldn't stand it any stiffer. The rear is all stock except for a 3/4" SAW bar and KYB's. It is soft & is not very resistant to body roll. Bigger rear tortions in the near future. I've also got a set of the Empi coil-overs coming. They should give a little spring rate increase for the rear. I have no idea how they would correlate with a larger dia tortion. They're relatively cheap & easy to install. We'll see if they do any good. I'm in dire need for some rotation right now. Herb Adams VSE has been doing suspension work on GM cars since I was a kid. His philosophy towards handling is "soft springs / big sway bars". Of course, heavy front engine cars are very different than what we're working with. Test & tune, test & tune, repeat.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:05 pm

Removing the front bar was Crazy. I ended up with rear wheel lift. No push and lots or rotation but I could not put any power down in the corners. I sure like the front grip but I can't live with the poor rear traction.

So do I put on the whiteline rear bar? or Just put the front back on? or both?

Theo