TMM 2332 FI Turbo Engine build thread
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Humpty
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 12:01 am
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Turbo_Manx_Maniac
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:32 pm
Just a little progress since the last post.
Installed the oil screen and sump plate. All went in dry as I will pull it and replace after the first oil change.
BTW, I will be using Brad Penn 30W break in oil for the initial break in and Brad Penn 20W50 afterwards.
Cut the head studs to length and installed them with copper RTV. Studs are bottomed out in case then turned out 1 full turn.
Didn't bother with pics of this as it was monkey work.
Installed the oil screen and sump plate. All went in dry as I will pull it and replace after the first oil change.
BTW, I will be using Brad Penn 30W break in oil for the initial break in and Brad Penn 20W50 afterwards.
Cut the head studs to length and installed them with copper RTV. Studs are bottomed out in case then turned out 1 full turn.
Didn't bother with pics of this as it was monkey work.
I accidentally Googled my Twitter. (And I liked it)
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Turbo_Manx_Maniac
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:32 pm
More work done over the weekend.
Focus was on getting to a long block.
Started by cleaning everything up prior to final assembly.
First thing was to clean up the grinding I did on the cylinder base to make room for the 10mm studs. Some simple grinding with the dremel and a green stone bit smoothed out all the marks, yet took off almost nothing. Totally common practice for anyone using Mahle 94's and 10mm studs, suprised Mahle does not fix this.
Next I taped off the cylinders and shot the outsides with BBQ flat black high heat rustoleum paint. I was out of flourescent pink.
Here's why you need to clean a cylinder repeatedly, this rag was brand new and made one wipe through an uncleaned cylinder. Filthy, but it does keep them from rusting while sitting on a shelf waiting for you to buy them.
I cleaned then all up with Gunk degreaser and a nylon bristle brush first, then repeated 2 more cleaning cycles with simple green. Dry them off and run a brand new white towel through them and make sure it comes back clean. Also, when they are really clean they will rust almost immediately, no big deal unless you plan on waiting several days before asembly.
I repeated the process with the pistons, pins, cylinder spacers, and rings.
I assembled the rings on to the pistons, didn't bother with pics but I put the top ring gap at 10 oclock, second at 3 and put the 2 oil control rings ~ 9 & 3. Arrows on pistons point to the flywheel.
For my own reference in the future, I have always used total seal rings for the second ring, in this motor I'm using all the Mahle rings. We'll see how fast they seat and what leakdown looks like as the motor ages. Would be nice to know if the Total Seals really add anything, and how they last over time.
Notice I have everything marked from when I did mock up, pistons, cylinders, and spacers all go back exactly like in the mock up.
I like Copper plus RTV for the spacers and cylinders, to each his own.
Next I bolted on he head so the RTV can setup. Each side was torqued 15, 20, then 23 ft/lbs. I did not install the copper head gaskets as I will be pulling the heads off when I install the pushrod tubes and air deflectors.
Next few steps will be bolting on a degree wheel, finding true TDC, checking the cam orientation, mocking up the valve train and building the pushrods. I am using the thinwall Manton pushrods with Scat 1.25 rockers and shafts.
For fun I mocked up one intake to do a prelim measurement.
My cam is an Engle TCS20, should have .397"lift on the intake. With a 1.25 rcker I expect .496" lift at the valve. I measured .495" which is probably the closest I have ever measured to what is should be.
As a side note, I was originally going to get a W120 grind with 112 lobe centers, there was quite a wait for it and the TCS20 is really close and was in stock already clearanced so I decided it would do.
Adv duration is 294° intake, 284° ex, 253°@.05" intake and 247°@.05" ex. I told Greg Timms what cam and rockers I was running and he set the spring tension for approx 1/2" lift. Picking the cam and head combo was the toughest choices I had to make.
Once the motor is in the car and fully tuned I may make some changes and a cam swap would not be out of the question, but I suspect this cam will be fine. I am running the TCS 10 in my current engine and it performs good.
Last project for today was to make a TDC tool.
I took an old sparkplug and broke out all of the electrode and glass leaving just the plug housing. I found that an M8 x 1.25 tap was perfect and tapped the old plug body. Then using some threaded rod I had left over from making the oil pump studs I cut a piece about 4" long and ground the end nice and round so it would not leave a mark on the piston top.
Just fooling around I can see my alum pulley is off by 2 degrees. I will confirm that with the degree wheel during the week.
Next thing I need to do is make sure I have the right sand seal, sems to fit very tight around the pulley. Of course I bought the pulley and seal from different sources
so it's my problem.
Focus was on getting to a long block.
Started by cleaning everything up prior to final assembly.
First thing was to clean up the grinding I did on the cylinder base to make room for the 10mm studs. Some simple grinding with the dremel and a green stone bit smoothed out all the marks, yet took off almost nothing. Totally common practice for anyone using Mahle 94's and 10mm studs, suprised Mahle does not fix this.
Next I taped off the cylinders and shot the outsides with BBQ flat black high heat rustoleum paint. I was out of flourescent pink.
Here's why you need to clean a cylinder repeatedly, this rag was brand new and made one wipe through an uncleaned cylinder. Filthy, but it does keep them from rusting while sitting on a shelf waiting for you to buy them.
I cleaned then all up with Gunk degreaser and a nylon bristle brush first, then repeated 2 more cleaning cycles with simple green. Dry them off and run a brand new white towel through them and make sure it comes back clean. Also, when they are really clean they will rust almost immediately, no big deal unless you plan on waiting several days before asembly.
I repeated the process with the pistons, pins, cylinder spacers, and rings.
I assembled the rings on to the pistons, didn't bother with pics but I put the top ring gap at 10 oclock, second at 3 and put the 2 oil control rings ~ 9 & 3. Arrows on pistons point to the flywheel.
For my own reference in the future, I have always used total seal rings for the second ring, in this motor I'm using all the Mahle rings. We'll see how fast they seat and what leakdown looks like as the motor ages. Would be nice to know if the Total Seals really add anything, and how they last over time.
Notice I have everything marked from when I did mock up, pistons, cylinders, and spacers all go back exactly like in the mock up.
I like Copper plus RTV for the spacers and cylinders, to each his own.
Next I bolted on he head so the RTV can setup. Each side was torqued 15, 20, then 23 ft/lbs. I did not install the copper head gaskets as I will be pulling the heads off when I install the pushrod tubes and air deflectors.
Next few steps will be bolting on a degree wheel, finding true TDC, checking the cam orientation, mocking up the valve train and building the pushrods. I am using the thinwall Manton pushrods with Scat 1.25 rockers and shafts.
For fun I mocked up one intake to do a prelim measurement.
My cam is an Engle TCS20, should have .397"lift on the intake. With a 1.25 rcker I expect .496" lift at the valve. I measured .495" which is probably the closest I have ever measured to what is should be.
As a side note, I was originally going to get a W120 grind with 112 lobe centers, there was quite a wait for it and the TCS20 is really close and was in stock already clearanced so I decided it would do.
Adv duration is 294° intake, 284° ex, 253°@.05" intake and 247°@.05" ex. I told Greg Timms what cam and rockers I was running and he set the spring tension for approx 1/2" lift. Picking the cam and head combo was the toughest choices I had to make.
Once the motor is in the car and fully tuned I may make some changes and a cam swap would not be out of the question, but I suspect this cam will be fine. I am running the TCS 10 in my current engine and it performs good.
Last project for today was to make a TDC tool.
I took an old sparkplug and broke out all of the electrode and glass leaving just the plug housing. I found that an M8 x 1.25 tap was perfect and tapped the old plug body. Then using some threaded rod I had left over from making the oil pump studs I cut a piece about 4" long and ground the end nice and round so it would not leave a mark on the piston top.
Just fooling around I can see my alum pulley is off by 2 degrees. I will confirm that with the degree wheel during the week.
Next thing I need to do is make sure I have the right sand seal, sems to fit very tight around the pulley. Of course I bought the pulley and seal from different sources
so it's my problem.I accidentally Googled my Twitter. (And I liked it)
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fusername
- Posts: 6806
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:26 am
nice TDC tool, I need to make one. how did you smash the electrode goodies out of there? real fun build up to follow here.
give a man a watch and he'll allways know what time it is. give him two and he can never be sure again.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
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Turbo_Manx_Maniac
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:32 pm
I put the old plug in a vice and busted the ceramic with a hammer and small chisel. After a while all the insides just fall out.fusername wrote:nice TDC tool, I need to make one. how did you smash the electrode goodies out of there? real fun build up to follow here.
I accidentally Googled my Twitter. (And I liked it)
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Passatman
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:01 am
Just a quick question, as i am going to build my first engine when i am through collecting parts. In your photo where you are taking and setting the endplay did you also ensure that the smaller dial on the dial indicator also read 0 before you took a reading, just a newb question.Turbo_Manx_Maniac wrote:So I left off installing the dist drive, I made this little holder so the gear doesn't come out when I turn the motor upside down. I don't have another dist hanging around or I would have used it.
Bolted the case halfs together, and made sure the center bearings were aligned, they can move a little bit so i made sure the parting lines were aligned.
Next it's time to drop in the crank.
And the cam & lifters. CB lightweight, 70 grams vs. stock 82.
Check to make sure the lifters have case clearance at max lift (tons of room)
Then the other half...
Install the cam plug, goop the case halfs, line up the oil pump and put her together. I changed all 6 big nuts later to match.
Next was the oil pump studs. The stock ones were too short, so I made new ones from threaded rod. Pump is a 30 mm Shadek,
Galley plugs installed. I had one where it went into the case a little too far, so I decided to grind it down a bit so I wouldn't worry abuot it later.
Here you can see the top of the oil plunger, and the feed for the cam bearings. Didn't want anything impeding oil so I cut the plug for this hole.
On to the flywheel, the crank and flywheel both came from DPR. Jose aid to install .039" shims for .006" end play. Let's see if he's any good...
.039" after deburring them. BTW, these are new shims from CB, and they suck. They all have huge stamping burrs that prevented a good thickness reading until both the inner and outer burr was removed. What a PITA and waste of my time. Wish I still had some VW ones, but I don't.
Installing the seal, little white grease on the inner lip so it makes friends with the flywheel.
OK, here's the baseline...
I think Jose has done this before...
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Turbo_Manx_Maniac
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:32 pm
I have been told that a dial indicator works best in the center of it's movement, so what I did was set the dial indicator on to the flywheel, pushed in on the flywheel and rotate the outer housing until the needle was pointing to zero. I did this several times to make sure the flywheel was going in as far as it would.Passatman wrote: Just a quick question, as i am going to build my first engine when i am through collecting parts. In your photo where you are taking and setting the endplay did you also ensure that the smaller dial on the dial indicator also read 0 before you took a reading, just a newb question.
As I knew it would only move a little I did not need to pay attention to the smaller needle. You only look at the small needle when you need to measure multiple hundred thousands, and even then I usually just count how many times the big needle passes zero.
I accidentally Googled my Twitter. (And I liked it)
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sideshow
- Posts: 3428
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:00 am
For the endplay it is a small amount of travel. Once you are close you really only see little travel and I just set to closet/any 010 (no matter if it is .000 or .090) and measure the plus.
Just a quick question, as i am going to build my first engine when i am through collecting parts. In your photo where you are taking and setting the endplay did you also ensure that the smaller dial on the dial indicator also read 0 before you took a reading, just a newb question.
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.
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Turbo_Manx_Maniac
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:32 pm
Re: TMM 2332 FI Turbo Engine build thread
Time for another update.
One thing I forgot to post last time was wrist pin retainers.
Something you probably don't think much about, but check this out.
That's an 8 gram difference between a stock C Clip and a teflon button. That's 16 grams per piston, or 64 grams added to the reciprocating weight. Wow, I'll probably never use teflon buttons again.
Anyway, next is the oil pump cover because I need to install the sand seal and pulley. I need to install the gasket and torque the cover, but first I need to clean up the cover outlet hole so oil can make the turn easier.
Here it is before it met with my dremel.
Here's the cover with the hole blended.
I pulled the top pump gear and gave it a light coat of white grease to help it prime later, but I will be force priming the motor prior to starting it. Next was the gasket installed dry...
Light coat of RTV on the washers to prevent leaks...then torque to 15 ft lbs. I did have to grind down the top 2 studs and nuts to clear the pulley, they would not let the pulley bottom out on the crank snout. This is really common on the larger oil pumps.
Next up was to torque the flywheel for good. I made this little fixture and used a 3' pipe on the end of my 1/2" drive rachet. The gland nut claimed the rachet as the rachet blew up under torque. Moved onto a second wrench and got it snug at ~ 600 ft lbs.
OK, next up is to install a degree wheel and find tdc, then check the cam timing. I could not find any local shops that had a degree wheel, most didn't even know wtf I was talking about. So I downloaded this one and glued it to stiff cardboard with spray contact cement. Total ghetto, but it works.
Next using my piston stop tool, I used a piece of coathanger and adjusted the degree wheel to TDC. How I do it is to turn the engine counter clockwise until it stops, put the degree wheel on zero, then go clockwise until it stops again. Whatever it reads, divide that in half and move the zero that much. Example, CC it goes to 24 degrees. Zero the wheel to read zero on the coat hanger pointer. Then go clockwise and say it reads 42 degrees. Half that is 21 degrees, so move the zero on the degree wheel until it reads 21 degrees. Now if you remove the piston stop the zero on the wheel will read at TDC. Repeat the measurement several times just to make sure you have it right. My cheap a$$ pully turned out to be 2 degrees off from real TDC. Note I did this with the degree wheel not the pulley.
To check cam alignment, I use the lobe centerline method. Most VW cams are symetrical, meaning that the opening and closing ramps are the same. This shows how old the VW stuff is, new cams lift the valve fast and put it down slower, or asymetrical.
Based on being symetrical, if you could accurately measure a point on each side of the lobes equally down from the center of the cam lobe, you could find the center of the lobe by adding the degree readings and dividing by 2.
Sound confusing?
Here's how I do it.
Setup one intake valve with a rocker and adjustable push rod. You want to get this setup pretty close to perfect so you can measure accurately. Set lash to zero, and setup a dial indicator on the valve retainer. Rotate the engine until you read max lift on the valve, record what the max lift is. Then go counterclock wise until the dial indicator reads .150" from the max reading, then go clockwise until the reading is .100" from max and mark down the reading on the degree wheel. Going past takes the slack out of the cam gear. 54 degrees.
Next go clockwise until the dial indicator reads .150" from max, then counterclockwise until it reads .100" from max and record the degree wheel reading. 166 degrees.
Next you add the 2 measurements and divide by 2 to find the lobe center. 54+166=220 220/2=110
So my cam is installed at 110 degrees lobe center, 2 degrees advanced from the 112 on the cam card. Advancing a cam moves the power band lower and retarding it moves the power band up. This is what I have found on most Engle cams over the years and is fine with me.
Truth be told I did check this when I first started checking the deck height a few weeks ago so I knew I did not have a problem. This is too late in the game to find a cam is installed incorrectly.
The next problem showed up. I'm using SCAT 1.25 rockers and the pushrods rub the tube. I'll have to order the CB tubes with the wide mouth. I could bent these tubes a bit but I don't want any leaks down the road. The pushrods do flex and even if there is a little clearance they can rub a hole over time.
These will have to wait for a future build.
One thing I forgot to post last time was wrist pin retainers.
Something you probably don't think much about, but check this out.
That's an 8 gram difference between a stock C Clip and a teflon button. That's 16 grams per piston, or 64 grams added to the reciprocating weight. Wow, I'll probably never use teflon buttons again.
Anyway, next is the oil pump cover because I need to install the sand seal and pulley. I need to install the gasket and torque the cover, but first I need to clean up the cover outlet hole so oil can make the turn easier.
Here it is before it met with my dremel.
Here's the cover with the hole blended.
I pulled the top pump gear and gave it a light coat of white grease to help it prime later, but I will be force priming the motor prior to starting it. Next was the gasket installed dry...
Light coat of RTV on the washers to prevent leaks...then torque to 15 ft lbs. I did have to grind down the top 2 studs and nuts to clear the pulley, they would not let the pulley bottom out on the crank snout. This is really common on the larger oil pumps.
Next up was to torque the flywheel for good. I made this little fixture and used a 3' pipe on the end of my 1/2" drive rachet. The gland nut claimed the rachet as the rachet blew up under torque. Moved onto a second wrench and got it snug at ~ 600 ft lbs.
OK, next up is to install a degree wheel and find tdc, then check the cam timing. I could not find any local shops that had a degree wheel, most didn't even know wtf I was talking about. So I downloaded this one and glued it to stiff cardboard with spray contact cement. Total ghetto, but it works.
Next using my piston stop tool, I used a piece of coathanger and adjusted the degree wheel to TDC. How I do it is to turn the engine counter clockwise until it stops, put the degree wheel on zero, then go clockwise until it stops again. Whatever it reads, divide that in half and move the zero that much. Example, CC it goes to 24 degrees. Zero the wheel to read zero on the coat hanger pointer. Then go clockwise and say it reads 42 degrees. Half that is 21 degrees, so move the zero on the degree wheel until it reads 21 degrees. Now if you remove the piston stop the zero on the wheel will read at TDC. Repeat the measurement several times just to make sure you have it right. My cheap a$$ pully turned out to be 2 degrees off from real TDC. Note I did this with the degree wheel not the pulley.
To check cam alignment, I use the lobe centerline method. Most VW cams are symetrical, meaning that the opening and closing ramps are the same. This shows how old the VW stuff is, new cams lift the valve fast and put it down slower, or asymetrical.
Based on being symetrical, if you could accurately measure a point on each side of the lobes equally down from the center of the cam lobe, you could find the center of the lobe by adding the degree readings and dividing by 2.
Sound confusing?
Here's how I do it.
Setup one intake valve with a rocker and adjustable push rod. You want to get this setup pretty close to perfect so you can measure accurately. Set lash to zero, and setup a dial indicator on the valve retainer. Rotate the engine until you read max lift on the valve, record what the max lift is. Then go counterclock wise until the dial indicator reads .150" from the max reading, then go clockwise until the reading is .100" from max and mark down the reading on the degree wheel. Going past takes the slack out of the cam gear. 54 degrees.
Next go clockwise until the dial indicator reads .150" from max, then counterclockwise until it reads .100" from max and record the degree wheel reading. 166 degrees.
Next you add the 2 measurements and divide by 2 to find the lobe center. 54+166=220 220/2=110
So my cam is installed at 110 degrees lobe center, 2 degrees advanced from the 112 on the cam card. Advancing a cam moves the power band lower and retarding it moves the power band up. This is what I have found on most Engle cams over the years and is fine with me.
Truth be told I did check this when I first started checking the deck height a few weeks ago so I knew I did not have a problem. This is too late in the game to find a cam is installed incorrectly.
The next problem showed up. I'm using SCAT 1.25 rockers and the pushrods rub the tube. I'll have to order the CB tubes with the wide mouth. I could bent these tubes a bit but I don't want any leaks down the road. The pushrods do flex and even if there is a little clearance they can rub a hole over time.
These will have to wait for a future build.
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turbobaja
- Posts: 2826
- Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:56 pm
Re: TMM 2332 FI Turbo Engine build thread
Pretty interesting weight savings with the snap rings vs. teflon buttons.
Note to self: remove silly teflon buttons
So you decided to keep this pump cover? I noticed you put the time into getting it flat, but then there was talk about it being a poor quality cover, now it looks like you're running it. I must have missed the joke, or something......wouldn't be the first time .
Are you going to run a sump or ??
Note to self: remove silly teflon buttons
So you decided to keep this pump cover? I noticed you put the time into getting it flat, but then there was talk about it being a poor quality cover, now it looks like you're running it. I must have missed the joke, or something......wouldn't be the first time
.Are you going to run a sump or ??
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Turbo_Manx_Maniac
- Posts: 3308
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:32 pm
Re: TMM 2332 FI Turbo Engine build thread
I will most likely use a snap ring going forward rather than the teflon button or stock clip.turbobaja wrote:Pretty interesting weight savings with the snap rings vs. teflon buttons.
Note to self: remove silly teflon buttons
So you decided to keep this pump cover? I noticed you put the time into getting it flat, but then there was talk about it being a poor quality cover, now it looks like you're running it. I must have missed the joke, or something......wouldn't be the first time
Are you going to run a sump or ??
Not sure if it was a joke or what, but I was thinking of using a Jaycee cover but decided to stick with the alum cover.
I'm not going to run a sump due to ground clearance issues, I usually run a higher oil level. Haven't had an oil related failure in 15+ years, but I do recognize extra oil would be a smart addition. A dry sump would be good, but no space for the tank. The accusump looks interesting, but I don't trust it and feel it adds unneeded complication. If I was turning more RPM I'd be concerned.
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turbobaja
- Posts: 2826
- Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:56 pm
Re: TMM 2332 FI Turbo Engine build thread
Your pump cover is probably better than the one that came on my CB 4 gear pump. It's really thin at the top to clear the pulley. I've thought about looking into a steel cover of some kind, or making something to try....
I think it's a good idea to keep the oil system simple. You'll still have 4+ qts capacity with a filter and hoses. Is there an external cooler in the mix?
I think it's a good idea to keep the oil system simple. You'll still have 4+ qts capacity with a filter and hoses. Is there an external cooler in the mix?
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richie morena
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:52 pm
Re: TMM 2332 FI Turbo Engine build thread
make sur that you key back the cb tubes with some wet and dry and coat them well, to stop rust . i did have them on my 2387 turbo motor no problem but after three years and our climate in the uk i had to change them . no use the jay cee alloy type , correctly fitted they dont leak .