Vents behind the bumper of a 411?

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:53 pm

Those who have seen vehicles with slots...do you remember if you saw them across the entire range?...like two and 4 door saloons as well as variants?
Also...we should look down the list of option codes of the 411 and see if there is some particular "arcane" equipment that may be ideal fit for a louvered front end location. It would be an ideal place for an air conditioning condensor. It could also be a great location for a fog light marker. Not a driving light type fog light....but a marker light. Ray

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:25 pm

I like the reducing lift idea!!

The aerodynamic theory seems to make sense to me though as that would give a reason why these vents seemed to have dropped with the release of the 412. Has anyone seen them on a 412?

Was just wondering though; would the smooth, non-vented front end of the 411 act like an upside down wing and cause the air to pass quickly over its surface and under the car, dropping the air pressure in this area and pull the nose closer to the ground; and wouldn't punching vents in this area not cause turbulence and slow the air down??

Or have I got it completely wrong??

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:27 pm

Suppose the slots were for an AC condenser (or any other option), why did they appear in large numbers in -72?
Possibly they did just empty the shelves with 411 noses, including slotted ones, when they realized that the front was going to change.

Lars S

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:59 am

I think that is a very good prospect as well. Remember....it was not until mid to late 71 that 411's actually came to the USA.
AC would be a little less common of a requested option in Europe....but VW was also pretty notorious within teh 411/412 chassis....about adding universal-ness into teh construction.
For example.....if you look closely....all of teh holes and stampings and threaded fitments to make either an automatic transmission or manual transmission car...are already in each vehicle.
Also...if you look closely....the stampings for left and right hand drive steering wheel, pedal and shift mechanism knock outs...are already tsamped into the bodies of every 411/412 made. On teh variants...which came without sway bars in general...the drillings and threads to add them are in every car made. There are welded in threaded mounts behind tehquater windows...for either three point restraints or a popout window (not sure which).

My point is...perhaps as the 411's were coming into the US market in 1971...they were getting more and more option requests for AC...it fits...as We have a lot of hot areas. I would figure that with European requests as well...VW may very well have started thinking about adding a universal set of vents to the body stampings. I would have......after all....VW cannot have been happy with the horrible quality of dealer chassis "butchery" used in installing AC at the dealers. I have not seen one example of dealer installed AC on a 411/412...that used identical and consistent equipment and material sets....or a proper hole cutting template or method. In fact...the trunk mounted condensor that mounts in the spare tire well...though the condensor and fan are of a nice design and decent performance....just absolutely tears up the trunk. Ray

khh48 · Post by **khh48** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:24 am

Since my car kind of started this tread, i have another question.
In my car the gearlever is black, i got some parts with the car and there was a chrome gearlever in there. Is it from a 412 maybe?

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:45 am

All levers I have seen are black, even for the 412.

One more thing about the nose slots:
For the superbeetle we could have factory a made row of vertical slots in the middle of the nose, just behind/below the bumper. We used them for the additional oil cooler here, but I guess thats where the AC condenser went in countries where that was an opion?
In that case it is close to think that also the 411 slots were ment for the AC condenser...

Lars

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:06 am

If the vents were for air-conditioning, I wonder why no 412s seem to have them??

I have another thought, I read in Joachim Kuch's book 'Volkswagen Model History' that in August 1970 the bonnet of the 411 was redesigned to prevent intrusion through the windscreen, could these slots have been added to change the deformation characteristics of the front panel? Maybe that's why the 412, with a new front end, didn't need them??

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:35 am

Hey Knut!

Does your spare lever look like the one in this 1969 prototype?

Does anyone know if the '68 came with a chrome lever?

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:39 am

Yes it is strange that the 412's all misses the vents, one reason can be that VW gave up the idea of launching a factory AC kit (which was available for the Beetle?)

From what I have read the measure introduced in -71 to prevent intrusion was a crease in the middle of the supporting structure for the hood (can be seen when opening the hood).

Lars S

Lahti411 · Post by **Lahti411** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:31 pm

Well this is strange, I have only seen gear levers with chrome finish. I didn't even know there was a balck option...

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:41 pm

I have only seen levers that are black. But....they are painted. Are you sure you are seeing chrome...or just polished steel?

I would tend to think that the slots may be for AC.....but it would probably be for a somewhat different method of mounting the fans...and not actually locations for the condensor(s).

If you recall, the way both 411 and 412 had the under bumper condensor housing designed....was a long strip condensor with single row slanted coils inside of a slotted black ABS housing.. It ran full length between the bumper brackets. However...the fans were actually located outboard of the bumper brackets one on each side. They pulled air in through the condensor and blew it downward. Most of what I saw were bladed type propellor fans with black steel mesh over them.
That type of fan was also responsible for the AC chin spolier being quite a large and visible affair full length under the bumper. A shorter flatter tilted chin unit with a squirill cage fan behind slots would have been less obtrusive and ideal.
Dang...these cars have toooo many mysteries. Ray

khh48 · Post by **khh48** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:01 pm

412s2 wrote:Hey Knut!

Does your spare lever look like the one in this 1969 prototype?

Does anyone know if the '68 came with a chrome lever?

Thats the one

wildthings · Post by **wildthings** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:06 pm

raygreenwood wrote: The shape of teh 412 was not just a marketing issue. It had definately improved wind handling characteristics...and was also built with 5 degrees more static castor built into the steering knuckles and the control arms.

Didn't know there were any differences here between the 411 and 412. What did they do different on the 412? Move the top of the strut tower back or what? I have both 411 and 412 subframes lying about and have never noticed any differences.

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:33 am

wildthings wrote:
raygreenwood wrote: The shape of teh 412 was not just a marketing issue. It had definately improved wind handling characteristics...and was also built with 5 degrees more static castor built into the steering knuckles and the control arms.
Didn't know there were any differences here between the 411 and 412. What did they do different on the 412? Move the top of the strut tower back or what? I have both 411 and 412 subframes lying about and have never noticed any differences.

According to Joachim Kuch's Volkswagen Model History book. Front castor was increased by changing the design of the steering knuckle in March 1970, he doesn't mention that it was changed again when the 412 was introduced, but I don't think his list of Type 4 changes by model year is exhaustive...

You shouldn't see any of these pre-March '70 models in North America, right? When was the 411 introduced to Canada?

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:45 am

According to the book "Te big VW's..." the export to US (Canada not mentioned) officially started with model year -71. This was thanks to the coal canister and also that the E model now was available with auto gearbox (earlier only yhe 68hp carb model was automatic!).

The option list has one item solely for Canada : petrol heater listed TO body No 411 2100 000 which is July 1970 and indicates that the 411 was marked earlier in Canada than in US.

Lars S