Flywheel shim question
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65bluebug
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:00 am
Flywheel shim question
I removed the flywheel from my engine (engine #9 160 667) out of my '65 and discovered that the flywheel shims are the same size as a shim from a 1600. The engine is a 40hp is it not? I thought the shims are a different size - smaller. Will a crankshaft from a 1300-1600 fit in a 1200 or am I missing something?
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Marc
- Moderator
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What do you mean by "same size"?
The inside diameter of the endplay shims was reduced in mid`66 when the flywheel-to-crankshaft sealing method was changed from a gasket to an O-ring. Outside diameter and available thicknesses remained the same.
A late small-ID shim won't fit on an early crank. An early large-ID shim will fit on a late crank, but it's folly to do so - the shim(s) will hula-hoop around and cut a slice right into the nose of the crank. I've seen cranks cut clear through to the dowel pins from this, but even a slight nick is enough to cause a shim to hang up and screw the endplay.
Yes, a 69mm-stroke 13/15/1600 crank will drop right into your 9xxxxxxxxx 40HP case, if you're thinking of increasing its displacement. In deference to the small oil passages I'd recommend using a non cross-drilled crank from a 1300 or early 1500. You'll need different rods (or the 1200 rods will have to be machined narrower at the big end) and longer head studs and pushrods/tubes to accomodate the increased engine width, not to mention intake manifold, muffler, and cylinder-tin fitment issues.
If you have the case bored out to accept larger cylinders it will essentially be the same as a `66/`67 F0/H0 case (still needs the longer head studs of course). If you don't machine it your maximum bore will be limited to 83mm ("Big-bore 40HP") and the narrowed 40HP rods will be mandatory because those pistons use 20mm wrist pins. 13/15/1600 (or larger) pistons use 22mm wrist pins. The 40HP cylinders are also shorter, so cylinder-base shims would be needed to make up the difference for the longer stroke - roughly .100" thick ones...very hard to find 40HP barrel shims/spacers anymore.
I'll not even go into the subject of what your cylinder head options would be unless you're serious about doing this...
I wouldn't even entertain the idea except for the fact that your 9xxxxxxxxx block (like later model "D" blocks used in other markets) has insert cam bearings and is quite possibly worth the effort to rebuild - if it hasn't been abused, it could be in better condition than many a later case since it's only been tasked with handling 1200cc up 'til now.
The inside diameter of the endplay shims was reduced in mid`66 when the flywheel-to-crankshaft sealing method was changed from a gasket to an O-ring. Outside diameter and available thicknesses remained the same.
A late small-ID shim won't fit on an early crank. An early large-ID shim will fit on a late crank, but it's folly to do so - the shim(s) will hula-hoop around and cut a slice right into the nose of the crank. I've seen cranks cut clear through to the dowel pins from this, but even a slight nick is enough to cause a shim to hang up and screw the endplay.
Yes, a 69mm-stroke 13/15/1600 crank will drop right into your 9xxxxxxxxx 40HP case, if you're thinking of increasing its displacement. In deference to the small oil passages I'd recommend using a non cross-drilled crank from a 1300 or early 1500. You'll need different rods (or the 1200 rods will have to be machined narrower at the big end) and longer head studs and pushrods/tubes to accomodate the increased engine width, not to mention intake manifold, muffler, and cylinder-tin fitment issues.
If you have the case bored out to accept larger cylinders it will essentially be the same as a `66/`67 F0/H0 case (still needs the longer head studs of course). If you don't machine it your maximum bore will be limited to 83mm ("Big-bore 40HP") and the narrowed 40HP rods will be mandatory because those pistons use 20mm wrist pins. 13/15/1600 (or larger) pistons use 22mm wrist pins. The 40HP cylinders are also shorter, so cylinder-base shims would be needed to make up the difference for the longer stroke - roughly .100" thick ones...very hard to find 40HP barrel shims/spacers anymore.
I'll not even go into the subject of what your cylinder head options would be unless you're serious about doing this...
I wouldn't even entertain the idea except for the fact that your 9xxxxxxxxx block (like later model "D" blocks used in other markets) has insert cam bearings and is quite possibly worth the effort to rebuild - if it hasn't been abused, it could be in better condition than many a later case since it's only been tasked with handling 1200cc up 'til now.
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65bluebug
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:00 am
How much smaller is the I.D. of a later shim from an earlier shim?
I just ordered some shims from Germansupply.com: http://germansupply.com/home/customer/h ... 286&page=4 and they won't even clear the four dowels let alone fit over the crankshaft end. I assume they are for a 36hp and not a 40hp.
I was asking about a later crank fitting a 1200 case because I thought mine may have been changed at some point, but thanks for all the 'upgrade' info though
Now, where do I find shims to properly fit my 1200?
I just ordered some shims from Germansupply.com: http://germansupply.com/home/customer/h ... 286&page=4 and they won't even clear the four dowels let alone fit over the crankshaft end. I assume they are for a 36hp and not a 40hp.
I was asking about a later crank fitting a 1200 case because I thought mine may have been changed at some point, but thanks for all the 'upgrade' info though
Now, where do I find shims to properly fit my 1200?
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65bluebug
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:00 am
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Marc
- Moderator
- Posts: 23741
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
The mid`66-up shims used on O-ring cranks/flywheels have the same part number for each thickness as the 1200/early 13/1500 "gasket" shims but with an "A" appended to the end.
Look for P/Ns without the "A", like these:
http://www.vintagepartsinc.com/100_40hp1600cc.html
Type IV shim P/Ns also lack the "A" but they aren't right for you (too big) - those numbers start with "021" rather than "113".
Looking at germansupply.com's website, it appears that they are slightly confused on the subject (at least the guy who built the web catalog is, anyway). For one thing, they list 111 105 285 for a .32mm 25-36HP shim, and 113 105 287 for a .34mm shim for the same engines...WRONG, 111 is for 25-36HP and 113 is for 40HP-up.
They don't list any shims that are sure to be correct for your engine, but they might have them and just not know it - could be worth contacting them to see if there's anyone there knowledgeable enough on the subject to exchange you for the correct parts.
Look for P/Ns without the "A", like these:
http://www.vintagepartsinc.com/100_40hp1600cc.html
Type IV shim P/Ns also lack the "A" but they aren't right for you (too big) - those numbers start with "021" rather than "113".
Looking at germansupply.com's website, it appears that they are slightly confused on the subject (at least the guy who built the web catalog is, anyway). For one thing, they list 111 105 285 for a .32mm 25-36HP shim, and 113 105 287 for a .34mm shim for the same engines...WRONG, 111 is for 25-36HP and 113 is for 40HP-up.
They don't list any shims that are sure to be correct for your engine, but they might have them and just not know it
- could be worth contacting them to see if there's anyone there knowledgeable enough on the subject to exchange you for the correct parts.