Missing spacer in a IRS setup ???

shovel80 · Post by **shovel80** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:13 pm

I just converted from swing axle to IRS in the 68 type1 when I put the drum on and tourqued it down the drum did not tighten up is there a spacer that goes between the nut and drum that I am missing or a spacer between the drum and outer axle bearing ??
Thanks Dave

Post by **Marc** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:43 pm

First, are you certain that you've correctly installed all of the IRS bearings/spacers?
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=107080

There's no additional spacer needed, unless your drums have had their "noses" shortened so they'd work on short-spline (pre`68) axles. That's about a 14-15mm difference - the splines will protrude significantly past the drum snouts if this is the case. http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... 2D5281%2D7

Also be sure you're using the correct seal carrier/bearing retainer (item #11 in this picture:
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/pics/irsaxle.jpg ) - IRS and swingaxle parts are different.

shovel80 · Post by **shovel80** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:55 am

I have aprox 2 mm between the drum and nut that is giving me the play
will those spacers from CIP do the trick
Thanks Dave

Post by **Marc** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:31 am

What are the drums? If they're 5-lug bug (or 4-lug that've been shortened) then spacers under the axle nuts would be needed with long-spline axles (including `68 axles). If they're unaltered 4-lug, there's something wrong in the wheel bearing/spacer stackup - adding spacers under the nuts might allow you to tighten them but wouldn't fix the real problem.

shovel80 · Post by **shovel80** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:41 pm

I machined up a spacer to go between the axle nut and the drun installed it and seem to be fine then took it for a test drive and the drum was squealing on the backing plate so now it looks like I will take apart the axles. What are the length of the three spacer suppose to be and in what order
hanks Dave

Post by **Marc** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:46 am

Marc wrote:What are the drums? ...adding spacers under the nuts might allow you to tighten them but wouldn't fix the real problem.

http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/pics/irsaxle.jpg
Inner spacer #3 is the thinner one, it goes on with its concave side inboard towards the CV flange. Outer spacer #12 goes on with its chamfered side inboard, towards the outer bearing. Neither of these spacers is common with either of the ones used on the swingaxle setup, nor is the bearing cover #11.
Spacer sleeve #7 must be present between the inner & outer bearings, as must be the inner race of the outer roller bearing #8.

What brake drums, and what year brake backing plates & shoes are you using? 4-lug `68 Beetle (wide shoe, 17.46mm wheel cylinder)? Are these all the same parts you were using before when it was swingaxle?

shovel80 · Post by **shovel80** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:55 am

It is a 4 lug setup that I bought as a complete drum to drup I have a e amil to the PO to see if some drums got mixed up or not He had it all apart for powder coating then went a different way
Thanks Dave

Bruce2 · Post by **Bruce2** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:34 am

Dave, you need to make a trip to the junkyard with your big 36mm wrench and pull a drum off. There will be the correct parts in the correct sequence.

shovel80 · Post by **shovel80** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:42 pm

looks like the spline shaft on my drum is 63 mm and the axle shaft is 65 mm so i am missing 2 mm are irs drums different than swingaxle in the lenght of drum spline
could someone measure and let me know
Thanks Dave

Post by **Marc** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:14 pm

The drums are the same for a `68 Beetle (swingaxle) and `69-up/`68 AutoStick Beetles (IRS). There's an odd-ball 4-lug drum that was used on `67 'Ghias and Euro-spec disc-brake `67 Beetles that had the same spline length but was narrower at the friction surface - those would rub if used on the wider `68-up shoes - but most have been replaced long ago with the "normal" `68-up drum so it's unlikely you have that problem.

shovel80 · Post by **shovel80** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:35 am

Ok finally got the time to take apart the axles and check the spacers.
The inner spacer is 15.9 mm x 37.5 mm the middle spacer is 56.8 mm x 38 mm the outer spacer is 11.9mm x 44.4 mm.
There was no inner oil seal in the setup
and I found some thin rings of metal from ihe inboard side one was still attached to the stub. I do not know what they are from old seal one has an on OD of 64 mm aprox and he other is 80 mm OD

Is the inner oil seal the same as the outer one if so my inner spacer should have the same od as the outer one to seal?

Thanks Dave

Post by **Marc** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:38 am

What inner spacer? You don't have #3 in this diagram:
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/pics/irsaxle.jpg

shovel80 wrote:...The inner spacer is 15.9 mm x 37.5 mm...

That's the inner race of the inner roller bearing. The inner & outer seals have the same dimensions; the inner spacer (when you get one) will have the same O.D. as the outer spacer.

Marc wrote:First, are you certain that you've correctly installed all of the IRS bearings/spacers?
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=107080....

Bruce2 · Post by **Bruce2** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:19 am

Dave, I don't know what those thin metal rings are, but they shouldn't be there. One kinda looks like a pinion bearing shim.

In your pic of the stub axle you posted, the "spacer" that is on the shaft is not right. That is the inner race of the OUTER roller bearing. It is #8 in the diagram Marc linked to.

The outer seal is the same as the inner seal 113 501 315H

Post by **Marc** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:52 pm

As Bruce2 says, the roller bearing belongs on the outside (sdorry, I wasn't quite awake yet when I made my last post) - it's apparently on the inside now on your car, so be sure to correct that when you reassemble.

IIRC the factory-installed inner & outer seals had different part numbers, but the common 501H (or 501G) works in either position.
There's also supposed to be a thin O-ring around the outside of the outer bearing, under the retainer - P/N 113 501 291B. Good luck finding anyone who stocks that one anymore (pelicanparts.com has 'em for $5 each), fortunately it's not critical.

shovel80 · Post by **shovel80** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:46 am

So If I get this right
these 2 peices

form this

and I am still missing a spacer htat is the same as the outer one
if so thanks to all
Dave