Hello, I am getting ready to purchase a sandrail frame with ball joint front end, but I need a link pin front end. What is involved with this type of conversion? I am thinking of using maybe an aluminum front end with shock towers out of a Hot Vw vendor. I only have 2 days to get a respond back to the guy. Thanks. You can take a look at this pic here.
http://www.dunebuggy.com/perl-bin/viewT ... orumID=3re.
converting ball joint into link pin
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Crash
- Posts: 710
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:01 am
The balljoint beam tubes are further apart than the kingpin. The easiest thing to do would be to cut out the upper mounts, fit the beam, then build new uppers and weld them in place.
-Mark
-Mark
________________________________
Mark "Crash" Johnson
Blind Chicken Racing
www.blindchickenracing.com
Mark "Crash" Johnson
Blind Chicken Racing
www.blindchickenracing.com
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scott the viking
- Posts: 3864
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:35 am
What are your fab skills like? It's kind of perspective...to some of us this would be very easy and would not think twice about it, but for some would be too much. Like Mark said...some welding and cutting are going to take place. If you can get it cheap enough and cannot do this yourself, maybe you will have enough left over for a shop to do it.
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MNAirHead
- Posts: 9570
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:12 am
Sand slinger...
Welcome to the forum... glad your here... please post often.
This is kind of like the "expensive french menu" question... by asking I"m guessing that you and I are on the same point of the learning/time/talent curve.
My gut suggestion would be either find a different buggy... OR work from the ball joint platform... remember cheap disk brakes are cheaper for a ball joint... and that a ball joint beam doesn't really fall apart that quick if driven withint reason (remember a type 181/thing) was shipped with a Ball Joint.
My opinion/suggestion... get it going and running with the ball joint... then drive it... repair the front a few times... then plan on converting.... chances are during the driving of it, there are some mods that can be done at the same time (you conert to ball joint).
One fact I know.. if you choose to buy it, we'll do our best coaching you trhough the conversion, fun and running of it.
Rails rock.
Timmy
Welcome to the forum... glad your here... please post often.
This is kind of like the "expensive french menu" question... by asking I"m guessing that you and I are on the same point of the learning/time/talent curve.
My gut suggestion would be either find a different buggy... OR work from the ball joint platform... remember cheap disk brakes are cheaper for a ball joint... and that a ball joint beam doesn't really fall apart that quick if driven withint reason (remember a type 181/thing) was shipped with a Ball Joint.
My opinion/suggestion... get it going and running with the ball joint... then drive it... repair the front a few times... then plan on converting.... chances are during the driving of it, there are some mods that can be done at the same time (you conert to ball joint).
One fact I know.. if you choose to buy it, we'll do our best coaching you trhough the conversion, fun and running of it.
Rails rock.
Timmy
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sandslinger
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 8:59 pm
Thanks guys. It sounds easy enough. My father has a lot of knowledge when it comes to welding and fabricating. He will actualy be coaching and guiding me through the process of any welding and fab I do. I was just needing to know what the difference was and how to do it. This is my first time with a standard vw front end. I have owned 3 supers before with strut front ends. Again thanks a lot for the response. I think I am going to get it and go with what Crash said to do.
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MNAirHead
- Posts: 9570
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:12 am
I'll add onto the questions....
-What shocks/suspension are a good mod (and budget)
-How wide should I make the front end?
-What beam should I use?
Suggestion --- open a separate thread on installing a King Pin beam... there's some tech info (geometry, degrees, proecedures) that someone else can learn from... what you're doing is a fun project.
Opening a separate thread will make it searchable in the future.
Thanks again.
T.
-What shocks/suspension are a good mod (and budget)
-How wide should I make the front end?
-What beam should I use?
Suggestion --- open a separate thread on installing a King Pin beam... there's some tech info (geometry, degrees, proecedures) that someone else can learn from... what you're doing is a fun project.
Opening a separate thread will make it searchable in the future.
Thanks again.
T.
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Leatherneck
- Moderator
- Posts: 17104
- Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:47 pm
sandslinger if this is the frame you are going to be using it would be a breeze to do. These guys will correct me if I am wrong, but I would cut off the upper mounts set the beam in place bolted to the bottom ones and then adjust the down tubes to correct length. If this is not the frame then most others will be a bit harder. But still doable.
If this is the frame I would also add a brace coming from beam back on the upper joints.
If this is the frame I would also add a brace coming from beam back on the upper joints.
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jowlz
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Personally, I think there is too much hype with swapping over to KP from BJ, for the casual off-road car.IMHO it comes down to how much travel you want from your front end.
If you are looking to add a few inches of travel and beef things up you can use thing trailing arms and spindles and pick up a few inches of travel. Thing also uses a different balljoint, which is stronger than the type1. I know quite a few people using this set up and it works great. Downside is finding all the thing parts.
If you are looking to get maximum travel or switch to combo spindles, thru rods and coilover shocks, KP is the way to go.
If you are looking to add a few inches of travel and beef things up you can use thing trailing arms and spindles and pick up a few inches of travel. Thing also uses a different balljoint, which is stronger than the type1. I know quite a few people using this set up and it works great. Downside is finding all the thing parts.
If you are looking to get maximum travel or switch to combo spindles, thru rods and coilover shocks, KP is the way to go.
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Leatherneck
- Moderator
- Posts: 17104
- Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:47 pm
I have never had a ball joint front end, but how long would one last with a guy who drives it pretty hard including jumps but not all the time? I have always had a K&L pin and they last but I also have to do maintenace and repairs. I like K/P better and that is just a personal opinion, but are they? If you lined two vehicles up each with a dif front beam would it be the luck of the draw to have the K/P last longer?
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scott the viking
- Posts: 3864
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:35 am
If both front beams are just raised stock...a thing balljoint is stronger than a link. It's when you start adding a few parts to the link that it blows by the balljoint.
A balljoint front will hold up to a shocking amount of abuse. As much as most folks seem to hate them...you would think that they would just collapse as soon as your car hit gravel...but they really are not very weak at all.
A balljoint front will hold up to a shocking amount of abuse. As much as most folks seem to hate them...you would think that they would just collapse as soon as your car hit gravel...but they really are not very weak at all.
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Ol'fogasaurus
- Posts: 17761
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: converting ball joint into link pin
There is a lot of difference between K&L and BJ front beams besides the distance between the torsion tubes.
As has been stated, the K&L beams were used until '65 then in '66 the beams were replaced with the Ball-joint beam.
The K&L beam has the potential of something like 9" of travel while the BJ beam limitation of about 6" before the spindles pull the lower BJ out of the lower arms. The BJ is pressed into the arms from the top of the arm which is where the BJ connects to it. There are modified BJs that do allow more travel, but they wear quickly and can pull apart by too hard of suspension hits. Adding stops to the BJ A-arms should be added to protect the BJs.
On the K&L beam the shock tower is straight up and down while the BJ has the tower leaning outboard and there is a "cap" on the top allowing the more standard type of front shock to be used rather than the double eyes style K&L uses. Both beams the shock mounts need to have the spot-welded seams welded for strength and, especially on the BJ shock mounts but the K&L towers also should be welded to reinforce the strength of the towers.
Thing spindles have a longer lower connection for the BJ allowing the BJ to be pressed in from the top of the arm but the connection to the spindles is on the bottom side (facing down) making the loading on the BJ different.
My normal use computer is down so I don't have pixs to post on this.
Lee
As has been stated, the K&L beams were used until '65 then in '66 the beams were replaced with the Ball-joint beam.
The K&L beam has the potential of something like 9" of travel while the BJ beam limitation of about 6" before the spindles pull the lower BJ out of the lower arms. The BJ is pressed into the arms from the top of the arm which is where the BJ connects to it. There are modified BJs that do allow more travel, but they wear quickly and can pull apart by too hard of suspension hits. Adding stops to the BJ A-arms should be added to protect the BJs.
On the K&L beam the shock tower is straight up and down while the BJ has the tower leaning outboard and there is a "cap" on the top allowing the more standard type of front shock to be used rather than the double eyes style K&L uses. Both beams the shock mounts need to have the spot-welded seams welded for strength and, especially on the BJ shock mounts but the K&L towers also should be welded to reinforce the strength of the towers.
Thing spindles have a longer lower connection for the BJ allowing the BJ to be pressed in from the top of the arm but the connection to the spindles is on the bottom side (facing down) making the loading on the BJ different.
My normal use computer is down so I don't have pixs to post on this.
Lee