front inside lift

[Brent Bousman]

Theo,

I would put both front and rear bars on the car. If you have some adjustibility go light on the front bar stiffness.

[volkswagen50]

I own and autocross a 73 super beetle. To stay in class I can't change the springs, but I can swap front sway bars. I can't add a rear. I lift the front wheel in hard corners about two inches. This only occured after adding the 7/8 bar. Body roll is greatly reduced and it's the soft rear that lets the front wheel come up.(cross weight transfer) Yes it plowed bad the first time out. So I went to 0 toe in the next time and my times improved. It still plowed a bit, so I went to 3/16 toe out and the car turns in very nice. It took all I had to get a spin out of it last weekend at Lowes Motor Speedway. We were running on the Kart track. It was a blast! From watching the video a friend shot and actual seat feeling, the car is very nuetral handling right now.

Everything you change on the car will mean a slight change in driving style to take advantage of the added benefit.

To take advantage of the big bar up front, I brake very late and quick and hard. No slight dragging of the pedal, mash it hard and crank the wheel. The hard braking loads the front of the car and lets the tires and steering do their job. I modulate the steering with the gas pedal.If I go into the turn and just try to coast, it plows. It takes practice and some finese.

People who watch the car say that it looks like it turns excellent, like it was on a pivot. These are experienced and winning drivers telling me this so I know I'm onto something. With higher speeds and more mods to the suspension in the future, I may need to add toe IN to the rear to keep the steering characteristics the way I like them to be. I wouldn't add more than 1/4" toe out to the front.

A big rear bar will re-plant the front tire, at the cost of rear traction . Everything is a trade off.

Just to correct a few things I've read here: The super beetle does have two bushings on the front bar, their purpose is not to isolate the action of the bar from side to side, but to add a stabilising effect to the bar. Meaning if the two bushings were in the center, the bar would still have the same degree of twist, the same force needed to twist it a degree would not change a bit, but it could flex in more than one plane of movement. Having the bushings out as far as they will go is to minimise that. The only way to separate the two sides would be to fix the center of the bar to something. This would create two separate bars in effect. If you stopped the twist farther out to the sides of the car, then the bar in effect becomes stiffer. (same diameter, shorter effective length)

Does this help?

[Ozzie]

Removing the front bar was Crazy. I ended up with rear wheel lift. No push and lots or rotation but I could not put any power down in the corners. I sure like the front grip but I can't live with the poor rear traction.

So do I put on the whiteline rear bar? or Just put the front back on? or both?

Theo

I'll be able to answer your question as soon as I get the new rear bar & try it out. I'll let you know how it goes. Tune, Test, Repeat...

VW50, that's what I was thinking too. Once you anchor the bar then it effectively becomes a tortion bar & trailing arm, no longer a sway bar. It would help reduce body roll because you've increased the overall spring rate, but not like a sway bar does.

[gcorrado]

So do I put on the whiteline rear bar? or Just put the front back on? or both?

how about trying the stock bar in front, and the whiteline in back. (the stock bar i think is lighter than even the lightest whiteline setting.)

then if that doesn't work add the whiteline to the front, and move from lightest to stiffest, until you get your rear end back.

if i had an engine in my bug, that's what i'd be doing.

[Mike T]

I wish you guys had been around 20 yrs ago when I was running my '73 in SCCA H-stock. There was damn little support then. Certainly no internet forums. There were only 3 Beetles autocrossing Nationally then, Myself in a '73 standard, my Brother out in California with a '73 Super and a guy from New England region in a '71 standard Beetle. We did well and years later I discovered folks generally felt we were cheating b**tards...

Mike T

[Ozzie]

I wish you guys had been around 20 yrs ago when I was running my '73 in SCCA H-stock. There was damn little support then. Certainly no internet forums. There were only 3 Beetles autocrossing Nationally then, Myself in a '73 standard, my Brother out in California with a '73 Super and a guy from New England region in a '71 standard Beetle. We did well and years later I discovered folks generally felt we were cheating b**tards...

Mike T

20 years! That makes you the guru. And you are one of the "guys" you're speaking of. Glad you're here.

[Theo]

OK. I put the front bar on and set it up stiffer. Boy the whiteline end links suck. It seems better but I will have to wait for race day to test. I wonder if the new bars have a better system.

I do have the rear whiteline bar. I may have to install it too.

I was also thinking of trying a lighter rear torsion bar. Maybe a 27mm.

I hate wheel lift!

Theo

[Bruce2]

when my brother was autocrossing his 72 standard beetle he had the same issue. our "fix" wsa to weld a 3/4" piece of flat steel to the front sway bar (centered for those that need clarification) and then made a bracket to bolt it to teh front beam. this ISOLATED the left and right side from one another and did not affect the set up other than eliminating the inside tire lift

What this acomplishes is to increase your front spring rate, but at the expense of removing your front sway bar.

It has been suggested to increase your front spring rate on a torsion bar car. The only way to do this (other than the above) is to increase the amount of steel in the torsion leaves pack. Since the holes in the center anchor and the trailing arms are a fixed shape, this is not easy to do. One way is to take your adjustable center and broach the hole larger to take some more of the stock leaves. Broaching the holes in the control arms would be much more difficult, so instead you might cut those extra leaves shorter and somehow attach them to the rest of the bundle. Welding is not an option since the spring will eventually break at the weld. The only way I can think of is to take another adjuster, broaching it larger then mounting it as close to the control arm as possible.

[gcorrado]

It has been suggested to increase your front spring rate on a torsion bar car. The only way to do this (other than the above) is to increase the amount of steel in the torsion leaves pack.

there is another way!!!

sway-a-way makes stiffer torsion leaves. http://www.swayaway.com/VW%20frameset.htm the leaves are thicker than stock leaves, but there are fewer of them - so it fits in the same torsion housing but gives about a 15% increase in spring rate. and i have to say... that really makes for a much stiffer front end. I have them, as does Theo (I think).

[cb performances also sells some, maybe just sway-a-way units, repackaged.]

[gcorrado]

here's a comparison of the leaves. from foreground to background they are the stock VW narrow, stock VW broad, and the SAW thick.



for reference here's what the stock bundle looks like



and with the SAW leaves you replace 4 of the narrow and 2 of the broad stock leaves all with just 3 thick leaves



it's probably not as stiff as the welded sway bar hack, but the advantage is that you can have a stiffer front end and a sway bar...

BUT RECALL, the first post of this thread was me asking if just adding these would make front lift better or worse, and the consensus was worse. but maybe using them and a lighter sway bar is the answer: higher spring rate to reduce body roll, but more indepentent wheel movement compared to a stiff sway bar configuration.

[gcorrado]

Boy the whiteline end links suck.

tell me about it. even after i've tried to modify them, they still stink. i'm convinced they're actually loosening the lower shock nuts. the threaded end on the lower arm just is not nearly long enough for a shock, the mounting bracket, a lock washer, and nut - EVEN after you agonizing wittle away the bracket to clear the shock's cylinder.

[volkswagen50]

Theo, why don't you like wheel lift? I baffled. I added a front sway bar and now have wheel lift, but far less body roll and more important, faster times. If you want it to go away, leave the front stiff and now stiffen the rear. Add thicker rear torsion bars to lessen cross weight while cornering and that will go a long way to dropping that wheel again. If you want to go fast around turns, stiff is the only way to do it.

What are you doing with the car? More street or more autocross?

[Theo]

I don't like rear wheel lift cause I can't put down power. The wheel in the air spins. Front wheel lift usualy causes push or under stear.

I'm running 30MM rear short torsion bars and CB 15% stiffer front leafs. The car is way stiff. The rear is practicaly solid with those bars.

I mainly autocross now but I want to race at the local road track. I drive my Ghia to the track it is a street car (sort of )

The Ghia is fast and corners well but I want to go faster. I ran well last weekend but I know I could have done better. I usualy run about the same times as the WRX crowd (STX). We have lots of subaru's racing autocross so they are a good benchmark.

Theo, why don't you like wheel lift? I baffled. I added a front sway bar and now have wheel lift, but far less body roll and more important, faster times. If you want it to go away, leave the front stiff and now stiffen the rear. Add thicker rear torsion bars to lessen cross weight while cornering and that will go a long way to dropping that wheel again. If you want to go fast around turns, stiff is the only way to do it.

What are you doing with the car? More street or more autocross?

[volkswagen50]

Sounds like a sweet setup What sort of ride height are you running?

Can you run coil overs up front or do they interfere with the whiteline bar brackets? Do you have a limited slip or open diff?

If the only stiffening up front is the 15% bars (not counting sway bar) Try some coil overs if its legal.

The time may be coming where the car, in order to be more competitive, becomes track only

What sort of front end and rear end alignment are you running?

[BajaT4]

I don't like the whiteline lower brackets either and would like to replace them with narrow end heims. I've got the non-adjustable 22mm bar which comes with simple L brackets. Its only a matter of time before those L brackets fatigue.

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/catdispla ... php?pg=144