why build a T5 and not A T4

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:42 pm

Not having built a T5, I still need to slide in and make one comment:

The stock wasser crank is VERY beefy, and has the T4 style flywheel attachment... No more dowell pins shearing off!

With a properly balanced stock crank, H beams and light pistons, the bottom end should be good to >7k all day long without counterweights,
and with much less rotating mass.
(probably more if you add T1 style lifters, preferably the ceramics)

The 2.1 is 94x76 from the factory. The 2.1 crank can be simply offset ground to 80mm if you want a chevy journal. (VW journal will give you a stronger crank though, just requires welding) IIRC DPR does them at a reasonable price with or without counterweights.

My personal inclination is to copy Oliver Knuth, recess the valve seats 5mm allowing you to create a real comustion chamber, also result in allowing a std length valve/spring combo, and weld up the water passages in head>to the block---
Use the WBX heads, water cooled, with a small radiator, and use 911 jugs as (IIRC) Wally is on the T4--- Would have fit a T5 much easier.

100>102x76 is a reasonable sized motor IMHO.

T4 size (centermain & thrust or just center, can't remember): Free.
Not having a bubblegum block: Priceless.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:42 pm

You may want to see if a type 1 dtm will fit the type five it allready uses the type 4 oil cooler.

TFTom · Post by **TFTom** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:51 am

i thinking about starting a t4 or oxyboxer build myself at the moment, i would be t4 all the way but am put off a bit by the cost of parts/

so what is the best donor wasserboxer motor size to build an aircooled conversion from?

cheers,
TFTom

pocketrocket · Post by **pocketrocket** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:05 am

Both are good. What crankshaft are you going to use? Rocky

TFTom · Post by **TFTom** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:34 am

were you asking me what crankshaft?

before i start id just like to say this is the very start of my t5 research, so go easy and explain things very slowly, three times over!

i was thinking 76 with chevy big ends to give 80mm as previously mentioned in this thread. That way i can keep cost down by using a stock crank and not go to the hassle of different bearings and spacers and stuff ive read about on other threads.

I also am thinking of using T1 94's (to give 2220cc). I think i will have to space the studs out differently, is that right? how?

Also with the chevy big end i can use 5.7" rods, will they fit?

Im hoping for a nice streetable, fast motor that is cheaper to build than a t4(bearing in mind i can get machining for cheap or free of course!), will i get it?!

TFTom

pocketrocket · Post by **pocketrocket** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:16 pm

TFTom, I would use the 1.9 case, but if you have a 2.1 core engine you can use it also. You will need to move the head stud spacing in to run the 94mm cimas. I like the 10mm studs so that makes it a little harder & more costly to install the inserts to do the job right. Have you looked at my web site I show a number of pictures that mite help you to see what has to be done. VW style rods with the chevy journals will fit. About FREE machining good luck. There is alot of work & cost to convert a h20 to air engine. Don't fall into the trap that it's going to be cheap. www.rockyjennings.com Rocky

TFTom · Post by **TFTom** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:09 am

any reson why you prefer the 1.9 for this size motor? and im right in thinking i need a 2.1 crank (76mm)?

Maybe not cheap, but more interesting than a throw together type1. And im in no real rush to get it done.

Yes i have looked at your site, and a few others. Very informative.

TFTom

pocketrocket · Post by **pocketrocket** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:09 am

The cost of the 1.9 blocks is less everyone seems to want a 2.1. Yes if you have a 2.1 go ahead & use it. The 2.1 comes with the crank you want (76mm). I built my 2873cc 86 x 103.12 engine off the 1.9 block. If you were to use a all t-4 main journal crank the 1.9 would be the block to use IMO. Rocky

TFTom · Post by **TFTom** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:01 pm

do you mind me picking your brain like this?!

all T4 main journals, why would i want to do that? i take it would require align boring the case, would it need grinding of the crank too?

having read through your site, i dont understand what the 'cylider spacers and adapter rings' do, can you explain further and would i need them on the motor i mentioned before?

Thanks,
TFTom

pocketrocket · Post by **pocketrocket** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:29 pm

I dont mind answering a few ? If you build a full race engine the all t-4 mains will make much a stronger crank. You dont have to a-bore the block to put in a all t-4 main crank in a 1.9 case! The spacers are not needed but if you want the cylinders to sit on the block right they are needed. I'm sure a number of engines have been built with out the spacers. I saw a problem with the first 94mm engine I built & I made the spacers. I have built more 101.6 & 103.12 (4" & 4.060) engines than 94mm ones. Again to do the engine right it costs $$. Be careful how much you save. To build a h2o to air engine it will cost you $600 to $1,100 more than a stock cased engine if you were to buy a new stock case. TFTom where are you from

You can email me. Thanks Rocky

Post by **Piledriver** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:32 pm

Yes, but comparing a wasser cased to a mag block isn't apples to apples either--- To make it a "fair" comparison one would have to compare it against another T1 pressure die cast block, with 90mm+ clearance for the crank, full flow oiling, etc, etc, etc.

No such animal exists, closest comparison is vs a T4 or one of the sand cast aluminum T1 cases, all of which seem to have issues of some sort, just listening to the gossip mind you.

$1200 bucks is about what a TF1 costs, if you could actually BUY one.
(It appears to be made of solid "unobtainium")

To me (disclaimer--I'm a T4 guy with a Vanagon) if I was building anything that wasn't
intended for hand grenade duty, it would be in a T4 or wasser case.
OTOH, it would preferably be water cooled...
(cooling is an issue in Dallas, Tx. So is heat. Occasionally)

pocketrocket · Post by **pocketrocket** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:59 am

Yes its true the waterboxer block is bad a$$ but, some would say thats only because I machine them. I think the h2oboxer block is much better than any of the stock type blocks & most of the aftermarket ones. If you are going to build a house start with a strong foundation. The block is the foundation of the engine. Thanks Rocky

pocketrocket · Post by **pocketrocket** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:19 pm

Guys, on the above post I did not mean to make it out like I make the waterboxer bad A$$ because I machine them. They are bad a$$ before anyone remachines them. German quality & workmanship, Diecast not sand cast. That is something that no other block can say. Thanks Rocky

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:36 pm

I agree with Rocky. The TIV and T5 cases are something that have not been surpassed yet!

The aftermarket can't spend the money on the tooling to equal them- Simply because they could never make a buck doing it.

vtec this · Post by **vtec this** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:43 pm

so with the 100+mm cylinders, you cannot use the type 1 head, right? how do the cases of the type V compare to the new aluminum type 1's? is cost the benefit of using the type 1 parts? are the heads on the type V weaker than type 1's? also, since i have a vanagon engine sitting in my yard, i was wondering whether or not i should use it. how does the type V handle turbo compared to say a 2442 type 1 (as far as reliability) ? Maybe i can convert the type V to use type 1 heads, and turbo so i can set it up like a type 1 in my sedan...what do you guys think?
thanks-mike