Drag Racing suspension

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:32 am

ford and vw are both 4 cylinders. vw uses opposing cylinder and this helps keep the motor short. ford is going to have all 4 cylinders in line. making it probably 1 1/2 cylinders too long and you might be cutting into the rear apron. Not a problem unless you are more of a purist.
I think We are just sold on vw stuff.
Another option might be to look for a 4 cylinder opposing subaru motor. similar in size to a vw. but probably not as cheap as the ford.

heres a motor almost ready to go, and built by one of the best and most reputable.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... p?id=95402

dont know the builder, but with the description, might get you pretty deep intot he 12's. (pending compression numbers)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... p?id=75023

but probably out of your price range. but this might give you a goal.

James2 · Post by **James2** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:22 am

Your going to butcher a 40 year old car, with a 40 yr old tranny, that was designed to hold 40. How many of these 64 VW are left? I know, to you it's just a bug, there all alike and they made millions.

If you ever do get it to run , the tranny will not last ten minutes. And it's going to cost more then 600 for the adapter and clutch alone.

Do us all a favor, and sell the bug to someone who wants a Volkswagon, and go find a Mustang or T boird to put your 2.3 in.

Enough time wasted with this idiot, I'm gone to stuff a 1600dp into a Mustang.

NoWaterOnlyAir · Post by **NoWaterOnlyAir** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:52 pm

guys try not to be mean to him, first off he says he doesnt know much about these vw's, with that being said dont tell him NO this and NO that. tell him WHY, NO this and NO that. if you guys are so stuck on him "ruining" a bug, then why did you put a bigger motor then completely stock (im guessing that you guys have something better then stock) he is only thinking from what he knows as of right now. Dyne if you want to put the pinto in the bug DO IT. dont let anyone else tell you what to do. BE DIFFERENT its how hot rodding got started. backing up everyone else on this subject (which i know for sure most ((probably all)) of us havent put a pinto in a bug) think about what kind of work and time this thing will take. if you look in HVW's (HotVW's) mag, there is a place that sells pinto engines. call them up and see if they have ever put a pinto in a bug. they can help you. But also consider the many engine builders out there that will make a VW engine outperform the pinto. good luck and keep us updated on whatever you choose to do.

Sorry if i sounded like an A-Hole to ANYONE but i always believe in the saying "To each their own."

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:28 pm

sorry everyone, just got my computer working again. And dude that thinks I should sell my car, as far as I'm concerned, the car isn't going to last forever so I should get my fun out of it now. I'll do whatever the hell I want being that my name is on the title. And yeah, I don't exactly have $6000 for just an engine. I'm thinking about backing my numbers down it something around 150 or so. Then later on I'll put a turbo on it or something like that. Whats a good streetable amount of horsepower for a Ghia? Something where its still economic but real fast. I also think I'm going to set it up for more of a track car and not a drag strip beast. Fast, handles awsome, streetable, and affordable. I'll keep looking for crate engines with a bit of a better deal. Just got a subscription to a VW magazine so I'll get some adds in there. Thanks for the help, sorry about the delay.

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:43 pm

i just thought of another option you might keep your eyes open for.
a rotory motor like a 13b. twin rotor and will very little mods such as a big carb will get you a lot of power. OR so i have been told. its a fairly small motor as well. the torque sucks, but the hp is there, and you can rev these things to the moon. addaptors can be purchsed from Kennedy Engineering for the mounting of trans to motor. Sone one on here has this set up. you might want to look over in the conversion section of this forum.
thought id throw that out there. 150 hp in a vw, look out, its going to be a fun ride on the street.
Good luck.

Post by **Tom Notch** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:02 pm

I think this should be on the Conversion Forum.............and I may just move it there.

mcbuggin · Post by **mcbuggin** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:00 am

In addition to the additional weight and size of say the Ford engine, you must also take into account the amount of work and weight added from the addition of a water cooling system. Obviously VW engines are aircooled so all of the cooling would have to be custom built, that goes for the rotary as well. Often times in the fall, after race season, you will fund good deals on engines on the Samba from guys who are getting out or upgrading so keep your eyes open.

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:29 pm

I've been thinking about going authentic now. I'm looking around to see if I can afford to do it though. Not exactly easy for a young person to find a job. I've got one working with a contractor but because I'm young, he doesn't pay me very well but its better then no job at all. Money flows pretty well on $7.50 with 10 hour days when you have no bills to pay though.

A rotory is an option. I'll look into that as well. But for now I'm leaning toward authenticity. I'd love to be able to beat people in a car that everyone thinks is slow to matter what.

Bugzlife · Post by **Bugzlife** » Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:30 am

Dyne wrote:I've been thinking about going authentic now. I'm looking around to see if I can afford to do it though. Not exactly easy for a young person to find a job. I've got one working with a contractor but because I'm young, he doesn't pay me very well but its better then no job at all. Money flows pretty well on $7.50 with 10 hour days when you have no bills to pay though. A rotory is an option. I'll look into that as well. But for now I'm leaning toward authenticity. I'd love to be able to beat people in a car that everyone thinks is slow to matter what.

nothing wrong with that, it just take some research, I have read at least 10 books on building hot rod Vw engines and I am still learnig every day

if you had a rotary engined bug or a porsche powered, or what not. if you did any good at the drags all the people would say, "ah, he's fast, because he's got a "---" motor in it, etc. but thats if you actually care what people think

if I were to redo my drag car, I'd stick the Mazda 13b with a bridge port in it, making 300hp, and its reliable. you got to think no valves, not push rods, no conecting rods, etc

it bolts right in the problem is running the the radiator, but it can be done and be lots of fun.

see this web sight: http://www.geocities.com/zenjoe/VW.html

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:24 pm

wow. That looks like something cool. I wouldn't have to mess with any suspension because they weigh the same. Coolness. I'll look alot more into that. Rotory engines are German so that isn't moving to far from home either. That is a lot more efficent then the Ford or building a VW. I don't think I'll get as much crtics as I would with a Ford. How about the transaxke? Any mods to that? And how does it hold up?

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:01 am

Rotories are Japaneese made not German. They are extreamly hard on VW transaxles even fully built ones. Even a well built VW is going to require some suspension work for best results, there is just no way to avoid it. The more HP you make the more suspension mods. you will need to do. Unless you DON"T want it to hook up the HP.

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:09 pm

Japanese made, but isnt the original design (the Wankel motor) concept german based?
So its close.

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:13 am

German designed and originally built, but Mazda bought the designs and all that eventually. I think after Wankel died or something like that. But they originated in Germany. And I knew I would do suspension work, I just didn't want to do suspension work for a heavier engine. I'll look into the tranaxle issue.

Mark H · Post by **Mark H** » Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:27 pm

It seems people are more intent on stating the advantages or dissadvantages of alternative motors for a VW.
The real question is what will putting a "Boat anchor" extra few HUNDRED pounds on the ass end of a VW do to the car?
Well basically for the most part it will ruin the car in EVERY way. It will not work well as a drag racer because the traction and extra weight will be so hard on on the trans that you'll need a stack of them to get thru the week. High speed handling will be so bad that you/ll be lucky to live very long. and cornering will be a total joke. You'll have to practically come to a complete stop to take any bend in the road with a cast iron inline motor haging on the rear bumper and if you had more than one corner to deal with you'd be rolled over in the weeds

Ontop of it all the extra weight is your worst prob. You'll need to upgrade your suspention,brakes,tires just to deal with the extra weight. Not to metion the extra speed if it ends up being semi fast.

The problem with switching to a different powerplant than a VW is that you need to make tons of extra power just to make up for the weight of the iron,water and extra crap and complexity of a non VW motor.

You'd have to make 120hp just to stay even with a stock motored VW making 65.

Ive driven in a single 48 IDA rotary motoered bug. It went fairly fast but it was nothing to write home about. The best thing it did was go way too fast on the freway. Rotary motoers really wind and once it got going it just kept going!

It was kind of scarey at speed tho. You could feel the cars weight and it bobbed around a bit .

The thing is a VW motor is made of some of the lightest and most exotic materials around. Magnesium,aluminum and "forged german steel" . You would be hard pressed to beat a VW motor ,power per pound. Bore a 1600 case to 94mm and have a 1914cc motor . Add some good heads and 44 webers and make a drivable 130HP this is enough power to run in the mid 14s with a stock geared trans in a stock weight bug. Good luck even breaking 14s with some heavy weight iron motor and all the trimmings.
Add a t3/t4 turbo set up and double the power of your 1914 VW motor.
Vws are fun and simple. Thats whats cool about them. Don't try and reinvent the wheel unless you just want something different for the sake of being different. Have fun.

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:32 pm

Dude, you should read everything before you state something. I'm not putting an "cast iron inline 4" onto it. Its a rotory engine, and it only weighs 40 more pounds then a VW engine. 130 horse to keep up with a stock VW, where did you get that from? A rotory engine does not weigh a lot and it wouldn't "destroy" the car for what it is. Research before you talk, it could help. Accept the fact that building a performance VW isn't always the easiest way to go. So what if a VW engine is made out of well crafted metals. If you want to take engine materiel into it, Japanese had and still have of the best steel in the world ever. In the 1600s during Iyesha Tokugawa's empiricy Japanese steel had less that .000006 phosfourus in it which is an even better rating then modern steel. And a lot better then anything Germany ever made. Granted, that amount of phosfourus was created by the laminated steel technique created and mastered by the Japanese in the Sen Goku period (1300 AD) but even today with their mas produced steel, it still holds one of the best phosfourus ratings in the world. You don't get steel like that in the 1960s out of Germany. I'm not saying German steel is horible or anything but its not on par with Japanese steel. All in all, Japanese steel wins in this argument no matter how hard you try to prove yourself. I know Japanese history and their steel used in their swords and just about everything else is a big part of their history because it was so perfect for the time period and even in modern day. I do Kendo so I like to study Samurai and Japan. VW engines are good for what they were designed for and thats 60 MPH down the Audubon. You can get horsepower out of them but its not the easiest or most reliable engine to use. It would have its advantages but so does the rotory engine. And by the way, don't even bother trying to bring the materials used in the engines into this. Its utterly pointless and the Japanese steel is by far more efficent then the German steel. And becides, be happy. Felix Wankel was German and he invented the rotory engine. German make, Japanese steel and inovations. Enjoy the history lesson! I've got a lot more I could so about the history and culture of Japan if you would like, just ask. And yes, I do want the car to be unique and different. And your "bobbing" around problem could be easily fixed with some suspension mods.