Compression Ratio , Knock , Detonation , pinking and ...

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.
Bruce M
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Compression Ratio , Knock , Detonation , pinking and ...

Post by Bruce M »

This seems to be a topic that revolves around the forum and is often misundestood. So heres my explaination . Some may argue that its wrong but Its my view.

knock , detonation and pinking.
These are three variations of the same theme.
In order of how much to worry.
1) Pinking , ignition is over advanced and the burn is too fast. The piston rattles off the cylinder wall and makes the sound. Less energy is used as kinetic energy (the piston is fighting it) and more heat is generated. Heat being particularly bad in an aircooled motor.
2) Knock , the spark is fired by the ignition but there is an uneven burn. There is a secondary ignition source and the two flame fronts meet creating the sound. Worse than pinking alone , more heat.
3)detonation/pre ignition. ignition without the spark, the charge self detonates and slaps down on the approaching piston. Very unhealthy, nasty forces on the whole bottom end and lots of heat.

Raising or lowering the compression ratio (subject to limits of induction and other components ) creates a denser charge. The more charge squeezed into a space the faster the burn . As compression ratio is raised the timing needs change, often less.

Fuel mixture.... This should be correct :) . slightly over stoic. at wide open throttle. This allows for an imperfect swirl and distribution of fuel. At light throttle,lower revs this can be leaned out as there is insufficient charge to self detonate. If the mixture is "correct" it makes everything else easier.

Timing. Too much advance and the burn is too soon and energy is wasted as heat, fighting the approaching piston. Too little and the burn continues as the piston is well down the cylinder, the energy is not converted into kinetic and becomes heat. So how much is just right? Well the best way is on a rolling road. The "correct" is the minimum advance to produce the maximum power at any speed (revs) and load point.
This advance angle changes with speed and load . To correctly time an engine you must measure both and adjust the advance based on both.
For example an Bosch 009, only measures speed so it advances to suit wide open throttle. even then its pretty poor at that. At anything other than full throttle (except where very over carbed) there is not enough advance. Energy is wasted and becomes heat.

Can you see the light bulb yet.

Finally. There are limits to compression ratio and its a very long story.
At some point Detonation will start and timing will have no effect.
However, in most cases the point of pre-ignition is still the spark plug!!
Put a cylinder heat (complete) on a bench and put a blow torch to the combustion chamber. Funnily enough the spark plug glows red within seconds, yes that pointy bit of metal sticking out of the head!

So, what. Well spark plugs are designed to run hot, too cold and the carbon builds up on the plug and it fouls. Too hot and it glows like a welder and lights up the fuel without asking.
If the timing is correct and the mixture is correct then you can "read" the plugs. The old method of checking the colour of the plugs works. If its shiney and glazed (insulator) its too hot, if its black with carbon then too cold. If its tan coloured from burnt off carbon its just right.

Once the rest is right you can adjust the plugs. This will maximise the amount of mixture the combustion chamber can correctly burn .

Basically thats it, and can you see why I believe mapped ignition is a must and fuel injection worth the extra hastle and cost.

All the Best............... Good luck!
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Marc
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Re: Compression Ratio , Knock , Detonation , pinking and ...

Post by Marc »

Bruce M wrote:...For example an Bosch 009, only measures speed so it advances to suit wide open throttle. even then its pretty poor at that. At anything other than full throttle (except where very over carbed) there is not enough advance...
Let's clarify that. A centrifugal-only distributor knows not and cares not what the throttle position is or carburetion setup is - it reacts only to RPM.
The real issue with an 009 is that if you set it to run well off-idle there may be too much advance for full-throttle operation in normal driving conditions (for example, 45-50MPH in 4th gear); it's also incapable of adding additional advance under high-speed/light-load conditions like a stock vacuum-controlled distributor can.
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panel
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Post by panel »

'65 Bus with a JDM Subaru EJ20 Turbo
Built by Germans powered by Japanese and brought together by Canadians
Bruce M
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Post by Bruce M »

The 009

Buy a brand new one & due to the current quality control it will have between 18-22 degrees total advance, maybe more or less, all in by 2500 RPM.
Then bolt it too any engine from 500 stocker to 5000+ monster.
Time it so that the engine doesn't pink at any point and your done.

So its timed correctly at full throttle if your lucky. More likely its short of advance at high revs and over advanced at low revs. At light to medium throttle its very short of advance (possibly 15 degrees). Its down on power all over the place, running inefficiently and therefore hot.
When you cruise (3000revs , light throttle) your loosing power so you compensate by using more throttle, so you get cr@py gas mileage.

And you wonder why aircooled hot motors have a reputation for running hot and drinking fuel.

Dissy locked out at 24 degrees? Don't make me laugh.


On the other hand on a RACE motor than only sees full throttle , runs for a few seconds and where efficiency doesn't matter. Then who cares.
But if its being used in the real world........ everybody should.


Cheers!
Last edited by Bruce M on Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bruce M
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Post by Bruce M »

hmm...

Re-reading my posts above, i realise i've not gone as far as including forced induction with the additional questions raised. Probably should have posted this in a different forum.

Regarding the question of boost levels and compression ratios that Joe raised. There is no right answer the two approaches aim at getting the most amount of charge into the combustion area. Each method will have different effects and torque curves. Production cars tend to use the higher compression & lower boost , but their goal is very low emissions ,low fuel use when cruising and low maintainance. This may be different to your goals. What is important is getting the fueling and timing right in both cases to maximise the output and efficiency.

What often seems to be the case with turbo motors though , is far too much cam and poor timing solutions.

Too much overlap on a turbo engine blows unburnt mixture into the exhaust area. Bad timing (too little advance) can also allow an incomplete burn and fuel exits into the exhaust. This burns up either in the port or the manifold. Ever wondered why VW turbo engines have a reputation for burning valves or destroying valve guides which then hit the turbo like a bullet. So either cut the valve guide and support back to expose the valve stem (!) or fix the real problem and ensure the all the burn happens in the head.

Again the story about race engines and different needs still applies.

cheers!
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

Bruce M wrote:...So its timed correctly at full throttle if your lucky...
Once again, "at full throttle" is a meaningless term in this context. I presume you mean "at high RPM".
And let's not single out the 009 - the same issues are of concern with any centrifugal-advance-only distributor, the only difference being the shape of the advance curve.
Bruce M
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Post by Bruce M »

nope , full throttle , as in minimum induction restriction. Maximum manifold pressure and therefore maximum flow of charge into the head.
(subject to a couple of provisos that would muddy the waters).

In general, less load (less mixture) requires more advance.
more mixture burns faster

speed (revs) is different from load . Both should be measured and adjusted for . 3D mapping.

The 009 is the most common used and poor quality. Others suffer from the same limitations if they don't measure load.
Last edited by Bruce M on Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

Bruce M wrote:nope , full throttle , as in minimum induction restriction...speed (revs) is different from load . Both should be measured and adjusted for . 3D mapping...
Right, fine, for a sophisticated ignition control system. But a centrifugal-advance distributor is about as unsophisticated as they come and can respond ONLY to RPM and cares not a whit about what the induction restriction/throttle position or load is. I think we're in agreement in principle here, just tripping up a bit on semantics.
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