OEM German vs. Aftermarket cooling tin

RT · Post by RT » Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:07 pm

Then let these 'others' come forth into a public forum, state their accomplishments, and share their knowledge with the rest of us. That is, after all, the whole basis of this website and the internet. If their posts somehow benefit their business, well consider that a bonus.

The difference between someone "behind the scenes" saving our industry and someone like Jake is the countless hours he spends typing on keyboard after putting in a full day at the office. Who has more of my respect? - guess!

PJMS · Post by **PJMS** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:18 pm

RT wrote:Then let these 'others' come forth into a public forum, state their accomplishments, and share their knowledge with the rest of us. That is, after all, the whole basis of this website and the internet. If their posts somehow benefit their business, well consider that a bonus.

The difference between someone "behind the scenes" saving our industry and someone like Jake is the countless hours he spends typing on keyboard after putting in a full day at the office. Who has more of my respect? - guess!

Some of the 'others' are wholesalers and frankly do not have the time to be on here. They spend "countless hours" on their computers sifting through thousands of lines of parts information - Believe me, I know about it. Those that do participate cannot directly affect their business as they are often not frontline retailers. However, they are here, they don't shout about it, and they do try to help. I am not trying to put Jake down on this point (although I admit it does look that way) but rather, I am defending those that work hard to actually do some good in an industry where we have much to genuinely complain about. I guess you could say that Jake is one of them, though more visible.

A_67vdub · Post by **A_67vdub** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:58 am

PJMS wrote:
Some of the 'others' are wholesalers and frankly do not have the time to be on here. They spend "countless hours" on their computers sifting through thousands of lines of parts information - Believe me, I know about it. Those that do participate cannot directly affect their business as they are often not frontline retailers. However, they are here, they don't shout about it, and they do try to help. I am not trying to put Jake down on this point (although I admit it does look that way) but rather, I am defending those that work hard to actually do some good in an industry where we have much to genuinely complain about. I guess you could say that Jake is one of them, though more visible.

Sure, there are alot of companies out there innovating parts for our industry, thats true. The difference is that Jake is backing it up with test data. I don't see any other company doing that. CB Performance and Gene Berg Ent. comes to mind. I think they make great quality parts. Notice I said "think". Because I've never seen data to back up their claims that their parts work better than stock. All they have are customer testimonials, which are OK, but I'd rather have data and customer testimonials. Most customers don't really know whats happening inside their engine. I've heard so many people swearing by the Porsche style shrouds saying they cool their engine great, but they don't even have a CHT, let alone 4!

If a company wants to be recognized as a true player in this industry, they have to back up their claims with test data. IMO

Steve

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:48 pm

Normally, when results from an experiment are newsworthy, the experiment is repeated at another facility elsewhere in the world. Any takers? Think back to cold fusion.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:56 pm

It all comes down to conventional wisdom.... as soon as one thing new shows up in a test it gets questioned.... Thats typical.

I share things as I work. I get to see more stuff than 90% of the aircooled enthusiast in this world..

First and foremost I'm an enthusiast.... That makes the difference almost by its self... Do a survey of how many VW business owners drive an aircooled vehicle everyday and go from there.

My tests are my tests. I will die trying to improve these vehicles and spread the truth backed up by facts. I have the data, where is "Theirs"? I invite challengers to the arena floor, but they better have a set of directives that equal mine as well as the facility to do the test work!

Just because its new or different data means nothing.... just listen and believe what you wish. I have grown thick skin throughout this testing, and especially after it.

If you want to listen, go for it. If you don't want to listen I invite yiou to prove me wrong... If you choose the latter be ready for very long days and plenty of note taking, I already have a 15 year head start on ya!

Joe vw · Post by **Joe vw** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:04 pm

PJMS wrote:There are two reasons why I cannot go along with the results, just because they have been done. Firstly, I believe they were too specific. Secondly, I believe that the results are now being repeated in too general terms, leading people to make sweeping judgements. There is an implied responsibility here. I am sorry that Jake has to go through the frustration of 'doubters', but that is also the cost in doing that kind of work. If you are right, then it will come out in time and, if you are wrong, then thank goodness we are not all sheep. Anyway, just because no one has seen the 'VW data' does not mean that it does not exist. This idea that no proof means simply 'myth' does not carry water with me.

I have read this thread and all your responses an have yet to hear a valid reason for your skepticisem. You are argueing the point that you have the right to disagree without any concrete reason why. and talk about generalizations, your doubt should have a leg to stand on. How about something substantial, like a question to Jake about a specific test you disagree with?
Here's a good example:"Firstly, I believe they were too specific." Really,who's making "sweeping judgements" ? Would you care to elaborate? When testing, the less specific your tests are the the more variables and less valid they are. Could it be that you are wrong?
The people on this forum are not sheep and if they happen to agree with Jakes methods does not make them uninformed or wrong as you seem to suggest.
No offense, but are you a defense lawyer or on a debate team?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:13 am

Perhaps he should schedule a visit to my shop... I'll swap shrouds in my test car and show him exactly what I found, he can watch the gauges while I scare the crap out of him with a few "driving talents" I learned as a teenager...

I have every ounce of my testing on video tape from two different views, I was ready for questions before I started!

mharney · Post by **mharney** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:39 am

I personally think he made his point a long time ago, and that he is now only arguing for the sake of argument. Consider yourselves trolled, IMO. I do.

PJMS · Post by **PJMS** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:00 am

Joe vw wrote:You are argueing the point that you have the right to disagree without any concrete reason why......Could it be that you are wrong?......The people on this forum are not sheep and if they happen to agree with Jakes methods does not make them uninformed or wrong.....

My original argument on this thread was with Jakes statement (made at least twice) that any criticism should come only from someone with a dyno; That automatically bars most from entering meaningful discusion. I could be wrong in my opinion, but then I haven't said that I am right, as such, only that I am not confident about the test data conclusions. Also, the conclusions I question are mostly those that have been spread by other people, not Jake. In fact Jake reminded us, on this same thread, that the fan shroud in question was only one of the several aftermarket ones tested. Now is not the time draw conclusions on this fact, but the time to investigate further, which I understand Jake is doing. I have been several times asked to support my position with facts but I cannot see what facts these should be as this was never the point I was making. Maybe you should read the thread again.

Lastly, I never meant to infer that everyone on this forum are sheep, which is certainly not the case. However, in all walks of life you will find those who are less predisposed to question, here as anywhere else. Perhaps I was being condescending in this remark, and for that I apologise. However, while agreeing with Jake does not make people wrong, disagreeing with him does not make them wrong either. In the end, for Jakes work to be given the respect it deserves, it must go through thorough debate, otherwise it will become another 'myth', as seems to have happened to other individuals.

PJMS · Post by **PJMS** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:10 am

Mark, you are one of the few) contributors to this thread that have made valid and reasonable points in my opinion, even those critical toward me. You also do not seem to be either one way or the other, which makes your coments all the more interesting. I think you are right, I am now just repeating myself and have fallen into the trap of defence rather than argument. I was considering backing out of this thread as it does seem to have become pointless, but I could not resist stating my position one more time. Now I see that things are about to become childish (not refering to you), so it is time to put it to bed, for now.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:21 am

Jake, it it the guys that claim to have the only aftermarket 36hp shroud with the proper internal vanes? You don't have to tell me directly. Just give me a wink...