WOXY-Water heads and Oxy cyls+S/C

Frallan · Post by **Frallan** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:44 pm

On a suggestion that I follow up upon, I start this new thread because previous one was "hijacked" from another topic. ( way off topic Porsche 911....)
Then I got such nice help from "Wesayso" to post pictures plus on top of it some really nice comments about the car. So why not share it on a separate thread?
As written before, I am not the one to take credit for the original design, it was two other guys. More of it in the text.
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Hi Piledriver
I've got a scanned article in .pdf format that I could send you by mail but I can't post it here because of no digital version.
If someone knows how to convert a large .pdf to a website for view or maybe just so it can be "picked up", no problem.

In Sweden there are still some quite interesting engines around.
The first one built in 1975 and used with autocross was based on T1 and had Ford BDA 16 v heads. Water cooled long before it existed. 10 000rpm.
The engine screamed. I heard it and I loved it!
It was my first meeting with 4 valve engines.
The guy Karl Erik Nilsson built crank rods, castings for the cylinder sleeves and adaption on the heads all by himself. Nice guy!
Similar engine was built 5-10 years later utilising Saab heads.
Heavy engines and heavy cars with all water contraptions but still technically quite interesting. The Saab one is as far as I know being dragrace'd but the Ford BDA I have no idea were it is
The shorts did rock at the time and maybe once again 18 years later? That is the way I and the car looked at the time.
Both of us look very different and are propelled by different engines although always "supercharged"

I bought the car in a finished state very similar to the article.
It was built in 1977 and passed several owners before it ended up in my ownership.
I passed the car legally through Swedish technical inspections and the inspector guys had no idea what they were looking at.
The only comment they had was that the skyport was illegal and needed to be documented in my papers. Done and I passed.
The car had a very complicated cooling system.
One normal cooler up front with electrical fan. Then it had a full bottom pan of copper tubes soldered together for extra cooling. A normal VW Golf/rabbit water pump did the circulation. During stop and go traffic or long idling I had to start the fan and an extra electrical Jabsco water pump to maintain water temps. On the highway it was never a problem.
The crank is a Okrasa 82mm. The rods 5,86" Carillos. The cylinders and pistons Oettinger/Mahle 98mm Nicasil. The heads have Porsche 911 valves 40/46. Exhaust sodium filled.
Main oil galleries drilled and mounted with oil squirters for cooling of underside of the pistons. ( again, this was done 1977. Long before motorcycles and turbo cars had this idea. It was copied from Turbo 911 experiences.)
Heads were T4 with exhausts modified with ports as T1 and 3-bolt flanges going in to 2 1/8" ports.
The supercharger is an english Wade.
The carb was Weber 45 and shortly after the article replaced by a Predator with very good result.
Cam was a very conservative Scat C20. Stock valvetrain but slightly harder double springs. I am not sure but I think it was 911 springs and retainers. Original Porsche 911 "elephant foot" adjusters.
Porsche CD ignition triggered by normal 009.
Exhaust was full 2 1/8" with twin "turbo" mufflers.
Dry sump oil system with oil tank Porsche style in the rear fender.
Twin Fram HP1 filters for return oil and twin HP1 for pressure oil.
Sleeved lifterbores and T1 lifters. ( Hey this was built in 1977!!! not bad...)
Gearbox was a 915 with full Porsche hydraulic clutch, flywheel and pressure plate.
I have to acknowledge this car and engineering to the original builder, Bengt ( I think it was?) and to Christer Lindstrom of Beta Racing in Avesta, Sweden.
Christer is the guy that got in contact with Gene Berg and engineered the famous crank and rockers based on Swedish quality steel from Bofors.
Another story were I was involved, but we save it for another time

Yes, the car did move very well.
It was difficult to drive with the 6 puck Porsche disc which was in the car from the beginning. Later to be replaced by a normal disc.
One of my first night drives with a dear friend downtown Malmoe is a real memory bomb.
My friend pointed out that a police car just had stopped to give us way. " For god sake, take it easy!" he said...... and I tried but instead the engine reved up and I let go of the clutch, the car squelled away and we both almost did in our pants. For some strange reason, the cops never stopped us.
Tires were 225/50 Pirelli and they were not suited for the torque.

Anyway, I have two more "secrets" to reveal what made a big difference how this car could work.
Oil spray was mentioned before and the 12 liters of oil circulated through four filters and a front mounted oilcooler.
Anyway, the cylinders were tightlyslip-in mounted to the cylinder heads. Not a hrink fit but very close. They had to be worked out with a lot of patience when taken apart or assembled.
I rememeber something like 19mm or if you wish 3/4" in to the heads.
There was a large contact surface on large part of the cylinders in direct contact with the very well cooled heads.

Another experience was that when I shut down the car, I left the electrical water pump on for a minute or two. It took away the heatbuildup. This was clear as the watervolume was small in the heads and they started boiling, if not aftercooled.
I will try to scan some more pictures one day and show heads and engine apart. It will be some weeks though.

Here is the PDF file from Frallan:
(Click on image for a larger version)
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I guess the link for the picture did not work, So until I get the help to post the pictures here, check it out on this topic, WAY off topic: Porsche 959: H2O or O2 cooled?

Wesayso · Post by **Wesayso** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 2:29 am

Here is the PDF file from Frallan:
(Click on image for a larger version)

And two more:

(Click on image to open a bigger version)

(Click on image to open a bigger version)

(original PDF files can be downloaded here:
Colorwadesc, Engine and Dunder Bug but might take a while...)

Wesayso · Post by **Wesayso** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:45 am

I guess we would all like to see the Heads of that beast up close

Once again; great stuff... dare to be different!

Sven-Olof Brorsson · Post by **Sven-Olof Brorsson** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:54 am

I saw those heads way back in the 70's....and I missed the oppertunity to buy that car in the early 80's.... and also a primered 65 Nova with a 69 Z28 302 cu in in it...same price and the same week and missed both. Great car and Frallan allways parade in style!!

Mueller · Post by **Mueller** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:47 am

I'm confused

Are the heads watercooled? And if so, they sound like they are T4 heads, but modified to have water flow thru them???....

Neat car and motor !!!!!

Frallan · Post by **Frallan** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:07 pm

I promised at some time to post the pictures on these heads on closeup.
Just sent the pictures to Wesayso and he is usually quick to get them posted.

Large exhausts? Yes, efficient, no idea.
I do not think the main performance of this engine is due to megacomplicated water hybrid heads, I actually think it could be achieved just as well with TIV heads and LN Nickies or Mahle Nicasils as in this case.
Max port TIV exhaust and mild intake would probably do good but a nice fan cooling would then be given when not having water.
The power kick comes from the blower at low speeds and yes, what gets stuffed in there must be allowed out but again, 2" exhausts ports is maybe slightly overkill.
The exhaust system was different.......cylinder 1 and 3 and then separate 2 and 4 were paired with a 2" primary and one 2,5" muffler each.
Another note is the "openchamber" with virtually no squish. Today a no no design. Better build some squish in to the design and run inverted dome to reduce compression.
I am not sure but the deckheight was 2-2,5mm and compression close to 8:1. Pistons were flat Mahle 98.
Pictures probably tell the rest of the story.

Wesayso · Post by **Wesayso** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:29 am

Here are the images:

(click on image for bigger version)

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:16 pm

Nice one Frallan!

I can see that the alternator is on the lower left, but what is on the lower right side? edit: come to think of it: probably one of them is the waterpump, but what is behind the other pulley?

Did you ever had a problem with the last crankshaft bearing (just behind the pulley) because of the blower pulling on it hard on one side (the top) ?

Scat C20 cam? Isn't that a type 1 cam??
Are the heads type 4 heads that have a water jackets welded around them or have I misunderstood?

Thanks,
Walter

Frallan · Post by **Frallan** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:11 pm

Hi Wally,
It is only a water pump and what you do not see behind it is the homemade steel water manifold for inlet and outlet of water.
The "third" pulley (if we talk about the same one) is just an idler excentric pulley from VW, like Jetta/Golf/Rabbit.

Scat C20 is just like most of their range of camshafts, available in TIV configuration. My C20 came originally riveted and not screwed to the gear.
Still have it lying around.

Bearing, no problem and the same crank is still 25 years later running with a new 55 cog 8mm drive pulley for my Whipple supercharger.
It has an integral "equalizer" although I am not convinced it is the right thing to have. Doesn't seem to hurt though.
In fact, I have never during all these years seen any problems with either rod or main bearings. That TIV case is just fantastic and if you add an Okrasa crank, dry sump oiling and multi filters, I guess it is helping.
I must admit that I am strong beleiver in support bearing.
My dragrace friend did that to his smallblock with a GMC 6:71 way back in the seventies and for him it solved the chevy smallblock crank problems that we saw with so many so many other racers.
TIV heads, YES!
The interior fins have been removed and the freed space used as water channels. A barrier in between the water nipples and presto, water heads.
The aluminium weld work was just fantastic and not only a big job but also done very nicely. I think some of the details can be seen.

theo_m24 · Post by **theo_m24** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:12 pm

Very Cool,

Was this some sort of Aircraft Motor originally, that was adapted?????

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:58 pm

Now if I could just get to Sweden...
I'd buy you a beer!

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:26 am

Hi Frallan,Thansk for the clarification.
Looking at your set-up again, I think the reason you do not have a crank bearing problem because of the blower is that the alternator and waterpump give a counterforce to the drive pulley.
Very clever design!
Greetings,
Walter

Frallan · Post by **Frallan** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:13 pm

From an aircraft? Jesus no!
It is genuine TIV, all of it.

As for smart design. It is all gone since many years. Today it is single 8 mm cog belt pulley with the Whipple sitting to the left of the engine.
A fan belt in normal center position for 911 fan.
Wally, now you get me worried that the crank or bearings will start to fail.
Maybe I should have followed my own common sense and engineered that outside support bearing after all.

Post by **Piledriver** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:09 am

I wouldn't sweat the bearing...
The aircraft guys put propellers on that end of the crank...

Plus, a gilmer belt does not have to be hyper tight to transmit power... you'd reduce your load more rigging a toothed drive for your alternator IMHO.